# Get your GOD-damned idiocy out of my education! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 30, 2004, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-your-god-damned-idiocy-out-of-my-education/277358 "2004-11-30T17:58:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-your-god-damned-idiocy-out-of-my-education/277358/81 "2004-11-30T23:27:17Z")
> [@friedo](#): > > Fuck it. I’m sick and tired entrenced political correctness about theism and the inherrent evil it represents…Religion, like statism, is backwards, barbaric and foolish, and whether by accident or design is a tool of both exterior and self-opression. Oh no, we _can’t_ say that. Because we have to respect their beliefs. Well, I do not, and I will no longer pretend that I do. I don’t care if it makes me a pariah. > > Religion isn’t evil necessarily because of the deeds that religious people commit. Indeed, most of them are perfectly nice individuals. Religion is evil because it specifically necessitates rejection of the very intellect that has driven the development of our society into one of unencumbered technological advancement and scientific discovery… > > …I have tremendous respect for the accomplishments of religious people, but I do not now, nor will I ever, respect their beliefs. That is not wrong, nor should it be scandalous to say out loud. Preach it, brother! ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-your-god-damned-idiocy-out-of-my-education/277358/82 "2004-11-30T23:31:43Z")
> [@continuity eror](#): > > Of course not. But I think there’s a difference between rejecting outlandish theories (seven day creation, flat Earth, geocentric universe) that have been proven wrong beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt, and saying that the universe’s genesis might have had a supernatural element. You can’t prove how the universe was created. We’re not even sure yet that the Big Bang happened. The Panda ‘theory’ hasn’t been proven wrong beyond a reasonable doubt. In fact, I’d think that it absolutely could not be proven wrong, as it’s not falsifiable. > [@continuity eror](#): > > I just haven’t seen enough evidence from either camp to convince me of a deity’s existence or lack of an existence (and I do think burden of proof cuts both ways on this issue). That doesn’t mean I entertain every weird cult that comes along. I think empathy is far more important than “faith.” In all respects I’m a secular humanist. But I can’t quite rule out the existence of a deity, not yet anyway. I need more proof for that. > > Sigh, the burden of being an agnostic. Sounds like you are an atheist by default, as you do not currently hold any faith in any deity. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ec9cab/32.png) [@The\_Tim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tim)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-your-god-damned-idiocy-out-of-my-education/277358/83 "2004-11-30T23:32:37Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > As a theist who is a member of the [Top One Percent Society](http://www.toponesociety.com/pages/1/index.htm), I’d like to get a clarification on what is meant by “idiot”. I often say “idiot” to mean people who believe IQ tests measure intelligence. More generaly I find “idiot” a good label for anyone who disagrees with my, clearly, superior opinions and conclusions. As it stands this does make all religious people idiots. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-your-god-damned-idiocy-out-of-my-education/277358/84 "2004-11-30T23:35:51Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Good. Then you will easily comprehend [Peano’s Axiom](http://mathworld.wolfram.com/InductionAxiom.html). > Do you believe that Peano’s Fifth Axiom is true? If so, can you prove it to be true? If you’re requiring that of **FinnAgain** , surely you won’t have any trouble explaining how to write a video post routine in 3DSMax v6 that will composite a sequence of pre-rendered images out in such a manner that the resultant animation will smoothly loop? Or what framerate, color depth, and aspect ratio is best for rendering out for televison, and why? Or the optimal method of creating a top/bottom material such that you can simulate accumulating snow on geometry designed for cutting into sprites? Specific knowledge does not a genius make. Can we get back to the matter at hand, and not allow this thread to degenerate into an intellectual pissing match? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-your-god-damned-idiocy-out-of-my-education/277358/85 "2004-11-30T23:44:18Z")
> [@continuity eror](#): > > Of course not. But I think there’s a difference between rejecting outlandish theories (seven day creation, flat Earth, geocentric universe) that have been proven wrong beyond the shadow of a reasonable doubt, and saying that the universe’s genesis might have had a supernatural element. You can’t prove how the universe was created. We’re not even sure yet that the Big Bang happened. But no matter what, Universe’s genesis will be tested for by science, not dreamed of by faith. In discussions of the Big Bang, I would wager that few scientists are advocating the Miracle Hypothesis. At least not in peer reviewed journal articles. > [@continuity eror](#): > > I just haven’t seen enough evidence from either camp to convince me of a deity’s existence or lack of an existence (and I do think burden of proof cuts both ways on this issue). 1. Does the burden of proof cut both ways in regards to Zeus the Father of All gods? 2. Does the burden of proof cut both ways on the Magic Giant Invisible Panda? 3. Does the burden of proof cut both ways on any concept of a God or gods? 4. Why, exactly, is Zeus outlandish but Adonai must be proven false? > [@continuity eror](#): > > I think empathy is far more important than “faith.” I would agree that empathy is probably more important than faith in many dynamics. > [@continuity eror](#): > > In all respects I’m a secular humanist. But I can’t quite rule out the existence of a deity, not yet anyway. I need more proof for that. Just curious, and honestly, with respect (and a little bafflement): What _on earth_ would it take to disprove that there is a Magic Giant Invisible Panda which created reality but ‘hides’ somewhere outside of it? In other words, what could someone possibly do to prove to you that there was no God? God is, by definition, beyond proof, testing, and refutability. One cannot design an experiment to test for something which cannot be tested for. With the absence of a testable, refutable data-set, what _on earth_ could you base this ‘proof’ upon? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-your-god-damned-idiocy-out-of-my-education/277358/86 "2004-11-30T23:47:07Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > I have lost it. > > I feel that loss when certain things happen. There used to be a shred of comfort. Now there isn’t. Well, to offer you a few shreds, may I suggest reading up on the holographic paradigm and relativity (throw in a bit of quantum mechanics too )? There are far more tantalizing and thrilling reasons for hope in the world of science than in faith, and they’re testable. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-your-god-damned-idiocy-out-of-my-education/277358/87 "2004-12-01T00:26:27Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Well, to offer you a few shreds, may I suggest reading up on the holographic paradigm and relativity (throw in a bit of quantum mechanics too )? Might I humbly suggest she watches [\*\*there’s something about Mary](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0129387/)\*\*, instead? Empathy, hope, love, evil, sexy babes, and huggable pets all rolled into one. Never fails to cheer me up. > [@](#): > > There are far more tantalizing and thrilling reasons for hope in the world of science than in faith, and they’re testable. Yep. As per my suggestion above, I’ve been led to believe semen has extraordinary hair-holding qualities. And _that_ can and should be tested. Hell, if it does work as advertised, can’t think of a better home business to get into to. Talk about “hope”! BTW, fully agree with your line of argument. Just not on your reading material. 🙂 Oh, and **Lib**? In the battle of dueling IQ sites, meaningless at it is, at least the brainiacs that designed [\*\*the one I belong to](http://www.highiqsociety.org/)\*\* knew what the fuck they were doing. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-your-god-damned-idiocy-out-of-my-education/277358/88 "2004-12-01T00:48:48Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > what _on earth_ > could you base > this ‘proof’ > upon? a red wheel barrow glazed with rain water beside the white chickens. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-your-god-damned-idiocy-out-of-my-education/277358/89 "2004-12-01T00:54:35Z")
> [@robertliguori](#): > > That’s easy. Simple proof by induction. My 1st-year logic students could do it. Honestly, **Lib** , try to keep up. 😛 That’s the axiom of induction. Using it to prove itself just isn’t right. Granted, your first year logic students ought to be able to prove it, but they would have to work just a little harder. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-your-god-damned-idiocy-out-of-my-education/277358/90 "2004-12-01T01:00:03Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Might I humbly suggest she watches [\*\*there’s something about Mary](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0129387/)\*\*, instead? Empathy, hope, love, evil, sexy babes, and huggable pets all rolled into one. Never fails to cheer me up. Different strokes n’ all dat. When I get really bogged down in thoughts of mortality, my own or others, I think about how space is time. About how if you have a ruler, five inches is there even if you’re already mesured to seven inches. Time is just as physical and present as space. And then I think that Universe is expanding in both time and space, omnidirectionally. And then I think back to the ruler, and picture Universe as a series of baloons-expanding-within-baloons, or a vast onion, or an infinite lotus at whose center is Void. But. No matter where you are in space/time, no matter at what point along the ruler, the entire damn ruler exists, simultaneously. But again, these are only the mental constructs I’ve drawn out of it, and I’m sure others would find their own light. > [@RedFury](#): > > BTW, fully agree with your line of argument. Just not on your reading material. 🙂 Gotsta love dat var-e-uh-bill-it-E! > [@RedFury](#): > > Oh, and **Lib**? In the battle of dueling IQ sites, meaningless at it is, at least the brainiacs that designed [\*\*the one I belong to](http://www.highiqsociety.org/)\*\* knew what the fuck they were doing. Meh, feh. My Subgenius can beat up your genius! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-your-god-damned-idiocy-out-of-my-education/277358/91 "2004-12-01T01:02:25Z")
> [@Cervaise](#): > > a red wheel barrow > glazed with rain water > beside the white chickens. Sounds like still life surely partly mystical frozen in time, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-your-god-damned-idiocy-out-of-my-education/277358/92 "2004-12-01T01:21:02Z")
Obviously, theistic belief _per se_ or the lack of it has nothing to do with innate intelligence but the denial of demonstrable fact when it contradicts one’s predetermined (and unreasoned) views is an act of willful ignorance. The greatest sin on this board. People still have a right to commit that sin but they really cross a line when they try to cockblock children from learning the facts. I’m really tired of the undue deference which is given to anti-evolutionist idiots in regards to public education. If school boards had any guts they would just declare outright that kids are going to be taught evolution as fact and that’s the end of it. There are no alternate scientific theories. Creation stories would be an amusing topic for a comparative religion or mythology class but they have no place in science and it’s time we stop pretending that these people deserve any attention at all. I think it should even be mandated that homeschooling parents teach their kids the basics of evolutionary theory and that the kids should have to be tested on this knowledge. To do otherwise would be akin to letting parents decide that they want to teach their kids that Columbo discovered America or that Kansas is in China or that 2+2=196. Kids have a fundamental right to a sound education and their ignorant-ass parents don’t have a right to deprive them of that. ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-your-god-damned-idiocy-out-of-my-education/277358/93 "2004-12-01T01:23:25Z")
I want to exchange, too. Email sent. ---
**Author:** ![Ca3799](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9f8e36/32.png) [@Ca3799](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ca3799)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-your-god-damned-idiocy-out-of-my-education/277358/94 "2004-12-01T01:24:35Z")
> [@Ca3799](#): > > I want to exchange, too. Email sent. Wrong thread! ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-your-god-damned-idiocy-out-of-my-education/277358/95 "2004-12-01T01:32:20Z")
> [@Corner Case](#): > > Note, however that a San Francisco school has recently [barred](http://www.reuters.com/printerFriendlyPopup.jhtml?type=topNews&storyID=6911883) the Declaration of Independence from being presented. Sigh. Fucking lies spread like wildfire, while decent men and truth stay quiet. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-your-god-damned-idiocy-out-of-my-education/277358/96 "2004-12-01T01:43:27Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > As a theist who is a member of the [Top One Percent Society](http://www.toponesociety.com/pages/1/index.htm), I’d like to get a clarification on what is meant by “idiot”. You know, that is a club to which I could be adjoined. What’s in it for me? I mean like do the chicks dig those one percenters or what? ---
**Author:** ![kimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f0a364/32.png) [@kimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kimera)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-your-god-damned-idiocy-out-of-my-education/277358/97 "2004-12-01T02:03:21Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > The bible doesn’t say the world is flat or that the sun revolves around the moon. Those assumptions were made by philosphers of the ancient world. If you’re going to demand facts, you should hold yourself to the same standard. Actually, he said that the bible says that the sun goes around the earth. > [@God (?)](#): > > Fear before him, all the earth: the world also shall be stable, that it be not moved. > [@God (?)](#): > > Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun, Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race. His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof. > [@God (?)](#): > > The earth and all the inhabitants thereof are dissolved: I bear up the pillars of it. 1 Chronicles 16:30, Psalms 19:4-6, and Psalms 75:3. There are plenty more versus in the bible that refer to the four corners of the earth, the earth’s foundations, and to the earth being flat and stationary in general. ---
**Author:** ![Equipoise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/equipoise/32/151_2.png) [@Equipoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Equipoise)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-your-god-damned-idiocy-out-of-my-education/277358/98 "2004-12-01T02:25:57Z")
> [@Lightnin'](#): > > If you’re requiring that of **FinnAgain** , surely you won’t have any trouble explaining how to write a video post routine in 3DSMax v6 that will composite a sequence of pre-rendered images out in such a manner that the resultant animation will smoothly loop? Or what framerate, color depth, and aspect ratio is best for rendering out for televison, and why? Or the optimal method of creating a top/bottom material such that you can simulate accumulating snow on geometry designed for cutting into sprites? _blink_ _blink_ I’m amazed. Even though I’ve never done any animation in my life, I actually know what everything you’re talking about means! True, I couldn’t answer the questions, but it all makes sense to me. I, well, just had to share that, I guess. (shaking my head at what I’ve picked up from my husband, a 3DSMax guy who subscribes to magazines like _Post_, without even paying much attention and realizing it. It’s all those great Pixar movies too.) Nods to the OP, right on…backs away, out of the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![MelCthefirst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eada6e/32.png) [@MelCthefirst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MelCthefirst)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-your-god-damned-idiocy-out-of-my-education/277358/99 "2004-12-01T02:40:14Z")
We have a painful evangelic church getting media time of late, however NZ education, money, marriage licences etc have no reference to god - we very clearly have a separation of church and state. The British ‘religious tolerance’ classes are something I would love to have introduced - not only for the theist haters, but also the aforementioned types who can show little tolerance for other religions. ‘Destiny Church’ is especially popular with Maori people (amongst others), who are over represented in prison, on welfare, in poverty etc etc. My point is that, after watching ‘Destiny Church’ do its thing, I’m thinking that religion like this does have a place - it helps to give those who have had shitty upbringings with little to no moral guidance, to develop a moral code and to give them role models for bringing up their own children. It keeps more people off the crime cycle, making my life better. ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-your-god-damned-idiocy-out-of-my-education/277358/100 "2004-12-01T03:31:53Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > With all due respect, why is it bigotry? Bigot is defined as: One who is intolerant, especially in matters of religion, race or politics. **Ghanima** was stating his intolerance to any religion - hence, Bigot. > [@](#): > > Certainly, the inclusion of ‘all’ makes almost any statement easily falsifiable, but what’s wrong with pointing out that, well, as far as logic, reason, and proof go, believing that you’ve got an invisible friend who’ll reward you in the Beforelife and fuck up your, er, I mean, His, enemies… Nothing is wrong with it. He can bitch about it all he wants. He just joined the Bigot Club in doing so, that’s all. > [@](#): > > While I respect anybody’s right to hold their own opinions, surely you wouldn’t be arguing that someone who hoped that Zeus would save him was acting wisely? Who honestly believed that Zeus was watching out for him? That Zeus wanted him to do certian things? That Zeus would take him to the Elysian Fields as a reward for doing as told? I pray for the strength and wisdom to see through my problems, not to be magically saved from them. It does come back to me. As for the Zeus believer, I can only say he believes what he believes or NOT believes. > [@](#): > > Why, then, do we have a different judgment about someone doing the same with Yahweh, Allah, Adanoi, Jesus, etc…? Did I do such a thing? > [@](#): > > When it comes down to real life or death decisions, which do you really want on your side? > Would you plant seeds, or pray for bread? Both…Science and prayer. I would plant seeds and pray for a successful crop to make bread with. Sidenote: **Eve** recommended a book earlier in the thread and I read the excerpts from it whereas I am labeled as a “Moderate Religious”, and therefore I am considered (by Mr. Harris) as the bane of this world, even worse the Fundementalists, because I mix science and religion together to find a “compromise” in my beliefs, therefore I am both ignorant and an unbeliever in the “Biblical Truth”. Whatever. I wish him well, too. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-your-god-damned-idiocy-out-of-my-education/277358.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/get-your-god-damned-idiocy-out-of-my-education/277358.md?page=6)