# "Getting" America **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 6, 2003, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-america/211697 "2003-11-06T14:02:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![APOC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f8ce5/32.png) [@APOC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/APOC)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-america/211697/41 "2003-11-07T15:45:35Z")
Absolutly , it was defintly just for chuckle value ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-america/211697/42 "2003-11-07T15:47:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by APOC \* > **I’m reliably informed that I have no accent (indeed a complete absence of any is oft remarked upon) and no distinguishing furriner characteristics.** Would you mind if I asked … 1. You nationality? 2. How you learned English? BTW, everyone has an accent of some kind. ---
**Author:** ![GKW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d9b06d/32.png) [@GKW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GKW)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-america/211697/43 "2003-11-07T15:48:06Z")
**APOC** , reading through your list of examples that you chose to support your idea that there is a quintessential essence of America, I only agree with the ‘love of democracy’ and ‘the presumption of the superiority of the constitution’. And I’m a little leery of the word superiority - excellence is perhaps more accurate. Recommended reading: “The Federalist Papers”. I thought George Washington was the guy who described America as the Great Experiment but maybe he just borrowed the phrase from the old world. Do you feel our media exerts a more powerful influence over us than other countries’ media exerts over their citizens? ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-america/211697/44 "2003-11-07T15:54:42Z")
Found [Pig on Beale’s menu](http://www.memphisforless.com/images/PigOnBealeMenu.PDF) online. They STILL have frickin’ Patriot Fries! That angers me. Folks like **APOC** eat at Pig on Beale and get the false impression that Patriot Fries are some kind of commonly-available food item in the U.S. Well, they’re not. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-america/211697/45 "2003-11-07T16:11:54Z")
Don’t listen to the people who say there is nothing to get about America. It is a hard question for Americans to comprehend because it is like asking a fish how it feels to be wet all the time. We are so encompassed in our Americanness that we do not even know it is there. I would second the de Tocqueville recommendation and also recommend “What’s so great about America” by Dinesh D’Souza and Beppe Severgnini’s “Ciao America! An Italian Discovers the U.S.” I think foreigners are more able to pinpoint what makes America unique than most Americans are. I think reading these two articles will help you understand the foreign policy leanings of most american and their differences with other countries. [http://denbeste.nu/external/Mead01.html](http://denbeste.nu/external/Mead01.html) [http://denbeste.nu/external/Kagan01.html](http://denbeste.nu/external/Kagan01.html) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Wrong\_Girl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b782af/32.png) [@The\_Wrong\_Girl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Wrong_Girl)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-america/211697/46 "2003-11-07T16:13:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bordelond \* > **Found [Pig on Beale’s menu](http://www.memphisforless.com/images/PigOnBealeMenu.PDF) online. They STILL have frickin’ Patriot Fries!** OT: Oh my god–BBQ Pork Nachos? Damn, this thread is making me hungrier than that darn sandwich thread. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-america/211697/47 "2003-11-07T16:54:57Z")
I think this is a good and meaningful question, and I am dissapointed by some of the responses so far. There do seem to be some shared beliefs that Americans hold, and answering the question by starting out “The thing you Euros don’t understand is…” doesn’t help. Admittedly, taking a thing such as the “freedom fries” or the reaction of a single person to Vietnam gets you off on the wrong foot right away. Some of the shared feelings Americans have - **Optimism** We tend to think that things are going to be OK. While there are setbacks economically and politically, most Americans think that their generation will be better off than their parents was. This is being tested right now, but I think most of us, especially minorities and wowen, would not trade the situation of the 60’s or 70’s for today’s. What does this come from? We hear sucess stories all the time. “Rags to riches” is not a cliche, it happens all the time. The wealthiest person in my neighborhood grew up in a dirt poor “white trash” family, and through hard work starting at the absolute bottom, now owns his own business (machinist) with customers such as Ball Aerospace and Lockheed Martin. His passion is NASCAR and if you met him at a race, you’d think he was poor, which of course he was. Families who are one generation removed from abject poverty (Vietnamese, Hmong, Jamaicans, etc) now have role models who posess wealth and status. Americans believe, with good reason, in class mobility. **Faith in our system of Government** It is the rare American who calls for some other form of government. The socialist party is almost non-existant, although they make noise. Although we disagree about the relative size and role of the government, most believe that if only _our_ guys were in charge, things would be great. The US Constitution is as close to a sacred document as exists in this country. The checks and balances in our system go almost unquestioned as a good thing. **National Pride** This is a tricky one, as many people are repulsed by the flag waving and militarism often prevalent. But these are an extreme. Although there were flags all over after 9/11, I could not find one anywhere in my neighborhood. The only ones I see are on bumperstickers, which are more or less permanent and most are fading, and on businesses who are quite frankly pandering. But if you do strike us, as on 9/11, this country comes together in defense. Even in something like the Olympics, where Jimmy in Alabama, who has never seen ice outside of a drink and doesn’t know a luge from a triple axel, still is glued to the TV. We like to win, and we really don’t like losing. Those are a few things to start with. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-america/211697/48 "2003-11-07T17:37:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lamar Mundane \* > \*\*Even in something like the Olympics, where Jimmy in Alabama, who has never seen ice outside of a drink and doesn’t know a luge from a triple axel, still is glued to the TV. \*\* You know this is true of the rest of the world, too? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-america/211697/49 "2003-11-07T18:04:42Z")
Americans have accomplished so much in such a relatively short time, that it’s difficult for us to see ourselves as anything but superior. We have inventors that have changed the world. We aren’t afraid to try anything…the more fantastic, the more we like it! We’re in a position to help others. A lot. Our contributions to the arts range from the sublime to the ridiculous. We are a nation of extremes. ---
**Author:** ![Lamar\_Mundane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/85f322/32.png) [@Lamar\_Mundane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamar_Mundane)\ **Post date:** [November 7, 2003, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-america/211697/50 "2003-11-07T20:28:32Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by jjimm_ > You know this is true of the rest of the world, too? I was just illustrating my larger point. I realize it is not exclusive to the US. Be it duly noted that every **jjimmy** in **Armagh** also cheers for the homeboy in the Olympics. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-america/211697/51 "2003-11-08T05:30:15Z")
This will probably ramble some, but what the heck. Let’s start with this gem, from the OP: > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by APOC \* > It is this idealism and belief in the very goodness of America which will see mothers wave their sons off to war , voyaging to places heretofore unheard of to fight evil. > > This origin of the belief in this essence of goodness is what I’m chasing. There actually is a concrete reason for this viewpoint. As an example, the Irish part of my family fled Ireland in the 1860’s because, quite simply, they were starving to death (the Potato Famine, or, as the Irish called it _An Ocras Mor_ or “The Great Hunger”). They landed right smack into the Civil War, but even so managed to find enough to eat, support their families, and start a successful business that supported several generations of the family. Coming to America was, on the whole, a good thing for them. I don’t know why my German grandfather came here at the age of 14 - he never told anyone. He wound up fighting in WWI _against_ his native Germany - whatever he sought in America, whatever he found, he choose it over the country of his birth. The Russian half of my family - those that did not leave Europe before WWI are _gone_ - they are utterly and completely wiped from the face of the Earth. Those that came here arrived with literally just the clothes on their backs. Nonetheless, within 10 years they had built a business to support themselves, send their children to college, and in general the family has prospered. In sum - for all my immigrant ancestors America was a Good Thing. That story repeats over and over and over here. THAT’S a reason for optimism. THAT’S a reason to see goodness here - we’re alive and we’re well off, especially in comparison to the rest of the world. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by APOC \* > Is there then no sense of collective grief at recent events? We have had collective grieving - and collective celebration. It is part of what unites us. We do not, however, march in lockstep on most issues. > [@](#): > > Is there then no shared tongue in cheek pleasure at the emergence of Freedom Fries ? Reactions varied considerably over this, but most of us found it a horribly embarassing episode. > [@](#): > > Is there then nothing to be read into the undeniably strong reaction provoked by hearing the Star Spangled Banner ? Don’t other people get choked up and teary-eyed over their national anthems? The SSB tells the story of endurance against the odds, of perserverance - the words come from the War of 1812, when the British invaded, burned down part of Washington DC (including the Executive Mansion, which was repaited white to hide the scorch marks, hence “The White House”), and tried to take back 'their" colonies. And it didn’t work - we won _again_, the Revolution wasn’t just a fluke circumstance. That’s back when we were the little guy and the underdog, and we just _love_ to see the underdog win, the little guy come out on top. But, beyond that - the SSB is one of the few symbols that _all_ Americans share. We’re so diverse that we don’t have many “universal” symbols so we tend to really get worked up about the few we do have (the SSB, the flag, the Constitution…) > [@](#): > > Is there nothign to be read into the nationwide presumption of rightness in the American ideal and love of democracy ? Well, most of _us_ are happy with it. But it’s not _just_ democracy, it’s also the ideals of freedom and opportunity. Because that’s what America is - the land of _opportunity_. Success is NOT guaranteed but you DO have a chance to reach it. We are less restrictred by class, caste, and ancestory than some other cultures. We also do enjoy a lot of freedom to decide what we want to do. Which is how we came to have an Austrian-born former professional body-builder and actor elected governor of the state of California recently - love him or hate him, Arnold is very American. (I suspect he’s also still very Austrian in some ways, which is also still very American) We move from one part of the continent to another, change careers, as a prior poster said we reinvent ourselves on a whim, to fulfill a dream, to find a better life for our families, for countless other reasons, and we regard this not as a privilege but a _right_ and the natural order of things. > [@](#): > > What of the belief in citizens rights and the presumption of the superiority of the constitution and the widespread yearning for a return of a Camelot style era … all nothing ? Well, the Constituion IS the United States on a very fundemental level. I don’t know if we’re “yearing for Camelot”, but yes, the rights of the citizens are very fundamental. > [@](#): > > All else defies categorization given the diversity of people and opinion. It is that when it comes down to it , there are certain things which all americans can agree on regardless of ideology , political leanigns etc. … Well, for the most part we agree on the Constitution. We believe in the rule of law, including the idea that no one, no matter how wealthy or highly placed in government, should be above the law. > [@](#): > > Are you suggesting that the US is so large that it defies categorization of the same kind as more concentrated smaller nations do ? Hmm… well, I think the size has an effect, but it’s not the sole source of our diversity. > [@](#): > > The phrase "the Great Experiment " is an old world term (admiddently with some unattractive colonial type undertones) previously used to describe America. The phrase actually originated with the the American “founding fathers”. Our system of government IS an experiment. So far, it’s been going well (at least for us) but only time will tell. I want to say more on our diversity. About 20 miles east of where I live is an Amish community. The Amish practice a somewhat unusual variant of Protestant Christanity and, as part of their lifestyle, do not use many modern inventions like, for example, electrical power in their homes, telephones, or automobiles. They cook on wood stoves, light their homes with kerosene lanterns and candles, and still drive horse-and-buggies. These practices do not arise from poverty - indeed, some Amish are quite well off - but from choice and a belief that their lifestyle is the proper way to live. About 5 miles south of where I live is the original home of Jerry Ross, a man who makes his living working in outer space. This range of diversity is seen as normal by those of us living here. I’m not sure that it would be considered such anywhere else in the world. Another note about the Amish is that they completely reject violence, even in self-defense. As a result, they have been exterminated in their countires of origin in Europe, but yet there are multiple communities of them here in the United States - because here we tolerate an enormous range of diversity, and the ideal is that, even if you don’t _like_ your neighbors, you still leave them be. Which might be why on the busses and trains of Chicago it’s unremarkable to see a Muslim reading from a Koran in Arabic seated next to an Orthodox Jew reading from a Bible in Hebrew. Do we always live up to this ideal? Of course not - we’re human and we’re imperfect and some of us are downright evil. But tolerance is the _expected_ conduct. Which is why many Americans really do not comprehend why people kill each other over religion or ethnic differences - as I said, we may not like our neighbors, but we don’t go around massacring them, either. Screaming insults over the backyard fence is permitted, causing physical injury is not. And, to finish - when I was younger I didn’t think much about being an American. I wouldn’t have described myself as particularly patriotic. But then I went to Europe and, while I had a wonderful time and very much enjoyed the visit, I realized that yes, I _was_ an American and could never be anything else. It was a certain _je ne sais quois_. There is a quality to being an American that is hard to put into words. We have much to be proud of, much to be ashamed of, and regardless of what happens we keep picking ourselves up, dusting ourselves off, and marching forward, all the while trying to do better, trying to live up to the very high ideals we have set for ourselves. Succeed? Not always - but _always_ trying again and again to live up to what we hope to be. ---
**Author:** ![gex\_gex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/94ad74/32.png) [@gex\_gex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gex_gex)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-america/211697/52 "2003-11-08T12:59:14Z")
> [@](#): > > _originally posted by broomstick_ > > Don’t other people get choked up and teary-eyed over their national anthems? The Australian national anthem doesn’t do much for me, and it is a great cliche that Australian’s care little for our anthem - it is often said we take greater pride in _Waltzing Matilda_ than _Advance Australia Fair_ - though, personally, I don’t care for either of them. But it reflects what is held to be the Australian character - distrust of authority, support for the underdog, belief in the ‘fair go’ and indifference for official ceremony. That I can so easily sum up the ‘character’ of a country as diverse as Australia (more Australians were born overseas thatn Americans) suggests that the OP has a point - countries can be understood as an idea. But, his critics have just as important a point - that idea rarely reflects the true nature of the country. > [@](#): > > _originally posted by phlosphr_ > Yes. To pick a flavor for the United States in the same way you pick a flavor for say France - Romantic - is nearly impossible… So much so I, as an American wouldhave a hard time coming up with a word to categorize the United States… If I had to choose a single word to sum up America, I’d say **big**. Bigness seems to be integral to the concept of America, whether it refers to the dreams of the people arriving, the space available to those people, to its worldwide economic dominance, to the importance and prominence of its leaders campaigning for equality for all people to the extent of its poverty or the magnitude of its historical inadequacies in terms of race relations, even to stereotypes of its people being friendly and welcoming, or overbearing and large in stature. Good or bad, America never seems to do things by halves. Of course, this is a stereotype, and one shouldn’t expect all or even most Americans to conform to it. But if one were to sum up a “national character,” I’d say that is the key. ---
**Author:** ![Queen\_Tonya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/4491bb/32.png) [@Queen\_Tonya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Queen_Tonya)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-america/211697/53 "2003-11-08T14:55:57Z")
**Broomstick** nailed it. ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-america/211697/54 "2003-11-08T17:43:49Z")
To the posters who have talked about the idealism re: America being a country of opportunity and immigrants… 1. How do you explain the rising negative rhetoric around immigration? (taking our jobs, exploiting the system, 1/3rd in federal prison etc etc, nothing that different from the rest of the world) 1. If everyone has a right to make a successful life, how do you explain the substantial opposition to globalization (say, out-sourcing to India and China) and continued protectionism in many American industries? I have a feeling that an overall sense of idealism does exist in the hearts and minds of US citizens but in tougher times, they start to vaporize. May be it isn’t as strong as thought to be. Also, I think there is a disconnect between the ideals that individual Americans believe in and the political system which is beholden to lobbies and special interests, which usually represent a minority (e.g., protectionism). To add to it, political apathy is unusually large for a country of this stature. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-america/211697/55 "2003-11-08T18:17:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by litost \* > \*\*1. How do you explain the rising negative rhetoric around immigration? > > (taking our jobs, exploiting the system, 1/3rd in federal prison etc etc, nothing that different from the rest of the world)\*\* Rising? It’s always been there. Heck, it’s a lot better for most immigrants now than it was 100 years ago in terms of acceptance. > [@](#): > > **2. If everyone has a right to make a successful life, how do you explain the substantial opposition to globalization (say, out-sourcing to India and China) and continued protectionism in many American industries?** That’s just silly. Their right doesn’t trump our right to do what we can to secure our ability to make a successful life. I’m not personally a fan of protectionism because I’m not entirely sure that it actually does make life better for most poeple, but your perspective is just a silly way to look at it. India and China use protectionism and every advantage they can in order to bring investment and jobs into their countries. The US does the same. No biggie. I don’t feel that the myths of the American are entirely true, I also don’t think they are entirely false. American attitudes **are** different from those of many other countries - which isn’t unique. Most populations have their own overarching differences in cultural outlook. But they are the same in that they look out for what they perceive to be their best interest first, just like everyone else. When things are going well, people tend to be more generous, when things are tough they tend to be more inward looking. That’s just human nature. ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-america/211697/56 "2003-11-08T21:11:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > Rising? It’s always been there. Heck, it’s a lot better for most immigrants now than it was 100 years ago in terms of acceptance. You concur then that the people don’t embrace the immigration ideal as much as it is verbally bandied about? > [@](#): > > I’m not personally a fan of protectionism because I’m not entirely sure that it actually does make life better for most poeple, but your perspective is just a silly way to look at it. India and China use protectionism and every advantage they can in order to bring investment and jobs into their countries. The US does the same. No biggie. Exactly. My point was only with respect to the notion of US citizens embracing a uniquely American notion of “everyone should have a right to be successful” etc. Nobody in China would have said that if you asked them what an essential part of the Chinese psyche is! > [@](#): > > But they are the same in that they look out for what they perceive to be their best interest first, just like everyone else. When things are going well, people tend to be more generous, when things are tough they tend to be more inward looking. That’s just human nature. Precisely my point. I thought the claim was that there is something about the American psyche which makes Americans fundamentally more generous. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2003, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-america/211697/57 "2003-11-08T22:45:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Is there then no sense of collective grief at recent events? Collective grief? Assuming you mean 9/11, well… collective shock, yes. Grief? Um… maybe to some. Collective outrage? Mmm, less than universal. And despite this we don’t all agree what to _do_ about it, except to vote and see what happens. In other words, we agree in some ways how we should react, we disagree in others; we definitely know we disagree how to respond; but we agree to collectively _decide_ (except some of us don’t). > [@](#): > > Is there then no shared tongue in cheek pleasure at the emergence of Freedom Fries ? Some people think it’s cutely subversive. Some people think it’s the by-God patriotic thing to say. Some people wish the first group of people had never thought of it. Some people wish the second group of people would shut up. So no, there’s no consensus. > [@](#): > > Is there then nothing to be read into the undeniably strong reaction provoked by hearing the Star Spangled Banner ? How undeniable is this strong reaction? As I remember from a visit to Thailand, they play the national anthem _every morning_ on the radio and _traffic is stopped_ so people listen to it. We don’t do that here, so I’m confused why you label our reaction as “undeniably strong.” To me, the last two words of the SSB are “play ball!” 🙂 > [@](#): > > Is there nothign to be read into the nationwide presumption of rightness in the American ideal and love of democracy ? I think from the above quotes, and from the above responses, you can get the sense that Americans love the democratic system because we know we disagree on stuff, but we love having a system where we hack out the differences and abide by a solution. A system of this kind allows us all to be individuals and still try to do what the group decides. You can also see why it is the ideological antithesis of communism. The overarching theory to America, in my view, is disputational: we disagree, we know we disagree, we compete, but _we embrace a system designed to sort out who wins._ And every election, we play again. I’m not sure how to respond to your assertion that Americans presume that democracy is _right_, but certainly it is right for _us._ Does not every nation try to extend itself into other lands because it presumes its way is right? Did not Britain and France and Germany and Spain all have colonies? Did not China and Japan and Russia desire to take over more territories? What is uniquely American about believing in our own system of dispute resolution? > [@](#): > > What of the belief in citizens rights and the presumption of the superiority of the constitution and the widespread yearning for a return of a Camelot style era … all nothing ? See above. As **Broomstick** said, we are diverse but we agree to be one. We are individuals but we decide as a group. We are tolerant of others so that others may tolerate us. Or… well, _e pluribus unum._ FISH ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-america/211697/58 "2003-11-09T01:39:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by litost \* > **You concur then that the people don’t embrace the immigration ideal as much as it is verbally bandied about?** No, I don’t concur. It’s just there’s a double standard that’s been going on for about 200 years. People take great pride in the fact that _their_ relatives were immigrants who made good. They just don’t necessarily want new ones competing for jobs and such all the time. However, the pro-immigrant organizations frequently use the nation of immigrants slogan as part of their lobbying and advertising. And you’d be surprised at how often it brings about a softening of the position. Note that I said softening, not necessarily agreement. It’s a very powerful image and while the immigrant ideal isn’t embraced as much as it is verbally bandied about, it’s embraced a lot more than in a great many other industrialized states. > [@](#): > > **Exactly. My point was only with respect to the notion of US citizens embracing a uniquely American notion of “everyone should have a right to be successful” etc. Nobody in China would have said that if you asked them what an essential part of the Chinese psyche is!** Actually, no one here believes anyone has a right to be successful. Everyone just has a right to take their shot at being successful within the framework of the rules of the game. I fail to see what protectionism has anything to do with it. > [@](#): > > \*\*Precisely my point. I thought the claim was that there is something about the American psyche which makes Americans fundamentally more generous. \*\* No one has made that claim. If anything, there’s something fundamental about the American psyche that makes Americans more competitive and possibly less generous (at least until you’ve made it big, then it’s seen as a good thing to be generous with your own money). More than anything else, a big part of the national psyche (if there is such a thing, which I don’t think there really is), would be looking out for number one above all else. ---
**Author:** ![litost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@litost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/litost)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-america/211697/59 "2003-11-09T02:39:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > No, I don’t concur. It’s just there’s a double standard that’s been going on for about 200 years. People take great pride in the fact that _their_ relatives were immigrants who made good. They just don’t necessarily want new ones competing for jobs and such all the time. > > It’s a very powerful image and while the immigrant ideal isn’t embraced as much as it is verbally bandied about, it’s embraced a lot more than in a great many other industrialized states. You have literally said that “the immigrant ideal isn’t embraced as much as it is verbally bandied about” and yet you didn’t concur with that statement when I made it… forgive me if I missed any subtleties. > [@](#): > > Actually, no one here believes anyone has a right to be successful. Everyone just has a right to take their shot at being successful within the framework of the rules of the game. I fail to see what protectionism has anything to do with it. Well, to me, if there is an American ideal that believes in everyone having a “fair” shot at being successful ( “land of opportunity”, “you can do it if you put your mind to it”, “poverty is the result of poor choices” etc) it would imply a lack of protectionist thinking. Fair competition and opportunity and all that. IOW, the framework you speak of should have rules that reflect this American ideal. Now, if you are telling me that such an American ideal doesn’t exist, then I agree (which is my point). I don’t think Americans are looking out any less for their own interests or desire any more to play on a global competitive field. > [@](#): > > No one has made that claim. If anything, there’s something fundamental about the American psyche that makes Americans more competitive and possibly less generous (at least until you’ve made it big, then it’s seen as a good thing to be generous with your own money). If you recall, I followed up on your use of the word “generosity” in the context of allowing immigrants in to make a life for themselves. Nothing to do with lack of competition or money. And, I thought we agreed on this. Americans, like the human race, embrace the immigrant ideal when things are OK but loosen the embrace when things are tough. Again, I was responding to previous posters talking of the immigration ideal as a key part of the American psyche. ---
**Author:** ![EllisDee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellisdee/32/4531_2.png) [@EllisDee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EllisDee)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2003, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-america/211697/60 "2003-11-09T03:44:16Z")
Great thread. I had several things to contribute, but all of them were mentioned by other posters. I do have some nitpicks that I am unable to resist. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by lachesis_ > certainly our history, as received by the average Joe on the corner from the hands of the earlier movies and popular fictional writing, has usually cast America as the penultimate Good Guy. This nitpick isn’t even about the lack of capitalization. If America is usually cast as the second fiddle, who is usually cast as the ultimate Good Guy? > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Broomstick_ > Well, the Constituion IS the United States on a very fundemental level. I don’t know if we’re “yearing for Camelot”, but yes, the rights of the citizens are very fundamental. The rights of the citizens are guaranteed by the Bill of Rights. And we (in America) do **not** live in a democracy. Cite: “I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America And to the ???” A democracy is not a worthy system of government. There is a good (IMO) reason why we have an electoral college. Mob rule is not a good thing. In a true democracy, minorities would, in all likelihood, enjoy even less equality than they currently do. Only the majority’s interests would be served. Now, when it comes to systems of government, republics are the bees knees. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-america/211697.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-america/211697.md?page=4)