# Getting Away With Murder (in Iraq) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 2, 2005, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-away-with-murder-in-iraq/329071 "2005-11-02T13:15:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-away-with-murder-in-iraq/329071/1 "2005-11-02T13:15:46Z")
The best way of getting away with murder is not to get caught, but lets look at what seems to be a gap in the legal framework. Consider a CIA civilian deployed in Iraq. Let’s say he kills an American soldier in the barracks. OK, legally, what can the US do to him? The only option I see is to hand him over to an Iraqi court. I presume the Americans would not want James Bond in Iraqi custody, and so I guess they would haul him back to the US and fire him. Certainly UCMJ does not apply. Does some Federal District Court handle cases in Iraq? A legal, not political sort of question. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-away-with-murder-in-iraq/329071/2 "2005-11-02T13:34:45Z")
Actually, the UCMJ does apply “In time of war, [to] persons serving with or accompanying an armed force in the field.” [Cite.](http://www.army.mil/references/UCMJ/#802.%20ART.%202.%20PERSONS%20SUBJECT%20TO%20THIS%20CHAPTER) For the purpose of this provision, I do not know what constitutes “a time of war.” ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-away-with-murder-in-iraq/329071/3 "2005-11-02T13:47:09Z")
Of course you are right, but I have never, ever heard of a civilian being brought up on charges under the UCMJ. Does it ever happen? ---
**Author:** ![Lumpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lumpy/32/446_2.png) [@Lumpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lumpy)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-away-with-murder-in-iraq/329071/4 "2005-11-02T13:52:20Z")
In spy fiction, it’s depicted that intelligence agencies have secret “in-house” tribunals for agents who break the law but can’t be tried in open court. Any truth to this? ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-away-with-murder-in-iraq/329071/5 "2005-11-02T15:15:07Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > Of course you are right, but I have never, ever heard of a civilian being brought up on charges under the UCMJ. Does it ever happen? It did happen. In [Reid v. Covert](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?navby=volpage&court=us&vol=354&page=6), the Supreme Court held that it was unconstitutional for the US to try military dependants (two wives who murdered their husbands who were in the military) was unconstitutional. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-away-with-murder-in-iraq/329071/6 "2005-11-02T15:33:18Z")
> [@Paul in Saudi](#): > > Does some Federal District Court handle cases in Iraq? > [@](#): > > A new law, the Military Extraterritorial Jurisdiction Act of 2000, establishes federal jurisdiction over offenses committed overseas by U.S. civilians employed by or accompanying the armed forces as well as certain military servicemembers. > [@](#): > > Provided a federal magistrate orders it and the host nation agrees, “the act now authorizes U.S. authorities to remove the person to the United States to be tried in federal district court when the host nation chooses not to prosecute,” Anderson said. So, yes and no. First, absent a treaty such as the ones discussed in _Reid v. Covert_, the host nation has jurisdiction, and can prosecute crimes committed in its territory. Assuming the host nation does not prosecute, the US can remove the perpetrator to the US for trial. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-away-with-murder-in-iraq/329071/7 "2005-11-02T16:01:32Z")
[Here is a very good article on the subject.](http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2002/06/27/military/print.html) ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-away-with-murder-in-iraq/329071/8 "2005-11-02T16:12:36Z")
Thank you all, a most impressive bunch of answers. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-away-with-murder-in-iraq/329071/9 "2005-11-02T16:15:01Z")
[An detailed review of MEJA.](http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m6007/is_2001_Spring/ai_92044665) ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2005, 4:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-away-with-murder-in-iraq/329071/10 "2005-11-02T16:25:30Z")
BTW, even before MEJA, the murder of a US citizen on foreign soil was covered by US criminal laws: Our jurisdiction applied “Any place outside the jurisdiction of any nation with respect to an offense by or against a national of the United States.” [http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse\_usc&docid=Cite:+18USC7](http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=browse_usc&docid=Cite:+18USC7) In other words, the US had [prescriptive jurisdiction](http://web.amnesty.org/library/index/engior530032001?OpenDocument). In those cases, the issue was whether the US had authority to arrest and prosecute the culprits. Cases like \*Reid \* dealt with the procedures that the US had to follow when it did prosecute.