# Getting fired or expelled = punishment. Not being hired or accepted = you aren't owed anything. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [May 2, 2019, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-fired-or-expelled-punishment-not-being-hired-or-accepted-you-arent-owed-anything/833372 "2019-05-02T16:28:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2019, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-fired-or-expelled-punishment-not-being-hired-or-accepted-you-arent-owed-anything/833372/41 "2019-05-04T15:22:19Z")
One reason to expel the student is because the goal of the cheating parent \*\*\*WAS \*\*\*to have their offspring attend the “right” school with the “right” crowd and gain the benefit of that experience. And some of these parents, if \*that \*is not denied them, may conclude “it was worth it”. The student is not being punished by the school, s/he is suffering the consequences of the parent’s conduct. Now, sure, with every disciplinary action, what affects your future opportunities _should not_ be the mere fact of having been dismissed/expelled/relieved, but rather the \*reason \*for it. But many a future employer/school will look badly upon the subject without distinguishing cases. That still should not keep you from protecting your institution’s rules. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2019, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-fired-or-expelled-punishment-not-being-hired-or-accepted-you-arent-owed-anything/833372/42 "2019-05-04T15:36:53Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Some people really seem to be having trouble telling the difference between two completely different questions: > > 1. Is expulsion **equivalent** to not getting accepted in the first place? > 2. Is expulsion **justified**? I already answered question 1. My post was in response to the contention that someone should get a break because they put a lot of effort in. Do try to keep up. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2019, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-fired-or-expelled-punishment-not-being-hired-or-accepted-you-arent-owed-anything/833372/43 "2019-05-04T16:21:25Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > One reason to expel the student is because the goal of the cheating parent \*\*\*WAS \*\*\*to have their offspring attend the “right” school with the “right” crowd and gain the benefit of that experience. And some of these parents, if \*that \*is not denied them, may conclude “it was worth it”. The student is not being punished by the school, s/he is suffering the consequences of the parent’s conduct. Another reason to expel this student is to deter future scam artists. Perhaps an unscrupulous parent might be willing to risk jail time if they believe a school wouldn’t expel their kid once the scam was uncovered. But if expulsion becomes the standard consequence of these acts, then the stakes are raised a whole bunch. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-fired-or-expelled-punishment-not-being-hired-or-accepted-you-arent-owed-anything/833372/44 "2019-05-04T16:23:31Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I already answered question 1. My post was in response to the contention that someone should get a break because they put a lot of effort in. > Do try to keep up. I’m sorry, I assumed your post was in response to the post you actually quoted when you responded. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2019, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-fired-or-expelled-punishment-not-being-hired-or-accepted-you-arent-owed-anything/833372/45 "2019-05-04T17:05:34Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > One reason to expel the student is because the goal of the cheating parent \*\*\*WAS \*\*\*to have their offspring attend the “right” school with the “right” crowd and gain the benefit of that experience. And some of these parents, if \*that \*is not denied them, may conclude “it was worth it”. The student is not being punished by the school, s/he is suffering the consequences of the parent’s conduct. > > Now, sure, with every disciplinary action, what affects your future opportunities _should not_ be the mere fact of having been dismissed/expelled/relieved, but rather the \*reason \*for it. But many a future employer/school will look badly upon the subject without distinguishing cases. That still should not keep you from protecting your institution’s rules. I feel like this is sort of like when parents take out credit cards in their 18-year old child’s name and then run up huge debts. It’s horrific, but the only way to get the debt discharged is for the children to report it. In this case, it’s like the parents used the kid’s name and social security number to borrow money to buy a car, then gave the car to the kid. It’s going to be heart-wrenching when the kid realizes what happens and they repossess the car, but it’s the parents who are to blame, not the lender. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2019, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-fired-or-expelled-punishment-not-being-hired-or-accepted-you-arent-owed-anything/833372/46 "2019-05-04T18:36:56Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > That’s really not true. Again, a LOT of the time, it’s not a matter of getting an unqualified kid in. It’s a matter of getting a qualified kid out of the “admissible” pile and into the “admitted” pile. If you’re a kid with SAT scores and grades well within the school’s range, you are engaged in your community, your professional college counselor approved your essays, your teachers told you they wrote good recs, etc. etc., why would you be “stupid” if you didn’t suspect your parents made your admission a “sure thing”? > > Most of the stuff in this most recent scandal was pretty crude, and I agree the kids probably usually knew. But I am absolutely positive that there are more subtle scams out there, and that it’s quite possible there are many students who don’t know their parents put their fingers on the scale, and it’s not because they are stupid. So, for cases that have nothing to do with what I was talking about, you disagree. So why bother quoting me at all? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2019, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-fired-or-expelled-punishment-not-being-hired-or-accepted-you-arent-owed-anything/833372/47 "2019-05-04T21:56:32Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I’m sorry, I assumed your post was in response to the post you actually quoted when you responded. You mean this one? > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by SamuelA > They are in no way practically equivalent. Someone expelled from Stanford has lost their time going there, has lost the chance to go to other schools (I assume this student applied other places. After all, the bribe might not have worked. This student likely had acceptances in hand for perfectly legitimate “safety schools” that aren’t Stanford but would have provided a similar quality education.) Post 6 was my answer to the OP. I didn’t think I needed to repeat it. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-fired-or-expelled-punishment-not-being-hired-or-accepted-you-arent-owed-anything/833372/48 "2019-05-06T14:22:33Z")
Another way of looking at it - when someone is “not hired” they simply may be not the best fit (in the opinion of the choosers) than someone else. Perhaps a more appropriate analogy would be what happens when someone is selected as the sole candidate and rejected - sort of like ex-Judge Bork being selected for the Supreme Court but not making the cut. (Even then, there’s some debate how much that was punishment for his role in Saturday Night, and how much for his unappreciated viewpoint.) But generally, being expelled or fired is specifically a punishment. Rarely is “not selected” a definite punishment, many times it is simply “you are not who we are looking for” with no moral judgement. There is no special wording for indicating the rejection was on moral not qualifications grounds. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-fired-or-expelled-punishment-not-being-hired-or-accepted-you-arent-owed-anything/833372/49 "2019-05-06T15:23:26Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > So, a squatter kicked out of a non-abandoned house has a reason to complain because he took the trouble to move all his stuff in? Let’s try this a little differently. Person A lies on their rental application to Apartment Building Awesome. The landlord discovers the deception and refuses to rent to them. Person A goes to live at Apartment Building Mediocre. Person B lies on their rental application to Awesome. The landlord does not discover the deception and rents to them. Person B moves into the apartment, and pays his rent every month. Landlord discovers the deception and, legally, evicts Person B from the apartment one week after the reveal. Are these two scenarios practically equivalent? Do A and B go through an equal amount of inconvenience resulting from their deceptive actions? I think not, because A had a place to live lined up if Awesome didn’t work out. B, having chosen Awesome, rejected the offer by Mediocre, and now has nowhere to live. The fact that the two scenarios are different doesn’t necessarily say anything about whether or not B should be given a break, but it does explain why some would see B as being punished while they don’t see the same for A. B is going through a very different life experience than A, and not in a good way. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-fired-or-expelled-punishment-not-being-hired-or-accepted-you-arent-owed-anything/833372/50 "2019-05-06T16:31:17Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Let’s try this a little differently. > > Person A lies on their rental application to Apartment Building Awesome. The landlord discovers the deception and refuses to rent to them. Person A goes to live at Apartment Building Mediocre. > > Person B lies on their rental application to Awesome. The landlord does not discover the deception and rents to them. Person B moves into the apartment, and pays his rent every month. Landlord discovers the deception and, legally, evicts Person B from the apartment one week after the reveal. > > Are these two scenarios practically equivalent? Do A and B go through an equal amount of inconvenience resulting from their deceptive actions? I think not, because A had a place to live lined up if Awesome didn’t work out. B, having chosen Awesome, rejected the offer by Mediocre, and now has nowhere to live. > > The fact that the two scenarios are different doesn’t necessarily say anything about whether or not B should be given a break, but it does explain why some would see B as being punished while they don’t see the same for A. B is going through a very different life experience than A, and not in a good way. I agree that they are different. I don’t consider the hardship that someone brings upon themselves as the result of being found lying a justification for going easy on them. In fact, those able to foresee the consequences of being found out might be less likely to lie in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![GuyTanzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/48db29/32.png) [@GuyTanzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuyTanzer)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-fired-or-expelled-punishment-not-being-hired-or-accepted-you-arent-owed-anything/833372/51 "2019-05-06T16:37:49Z")
“The guy was deprived of his ability to go to a different school because he was let into this one.” Well boo fucking hoo. Shit happens. Try getting another job after you get fired for lying your way into a job, getting caught, and getting fired. The kid has to go to a community college, or a less prestigious school? My guitar gently weeps. Hey, the kid did learn something for $6.5 million; this wasn’t a total loss. I was an adjunct community college professor teaching computer classes and tried my damndest to be a good, fair, understanding teacher, even with zero training in education. But I caught people cheating - obviously blatantly cheating, where other teachers looked at the evidence and started laughing and saying it was obvious. There was weeping and wailing and whining and “it isn’t FAIR!”. Excuse me, but these are college students; it isn’t high school any more. They can grow up, accept responsibility for their own actions, and take heir lumps. I suppose it’s conceivable the student didn’t know her parents coughed up $6.5 million to get her into college, but I find it unlikely. I liken it to being caught as a crewman on a pirate ship. You may be the nicest pirate who ever lived, never hurt anyone yada yada yada, but you’ll decorate a lamp-post nonetheless. One last note: I checked and Stanford is a private college; they can do whatever the hell they want within the letter of the law, same as your typical business is privately owned. Even state universities and colleges have rules, and the Big Book Of Rules at those schools usually say their word is law on campus. Don’t like it? Again, this isn’t a public high school; no one is forcing anyone to go, and if a person doesn’t want to follow The Big Book Of Rules, they don’t have to attend or step on campus. That’s freedom, cobber! Our entire civilization is based by necessity on the idea that people can set reasonable rules, and expect other people to abide by them, and take appropriate action against rule breakers. I could open up a whole other can of worms in here by using the phrase “herd immunity”. Civilization breaks down quickly if that can’t be maintained. What this kid, or the family did, was bribery and possibly fraud. Remember the movie “Soul Man”? [Soul Man (1986) - IMDb](https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0091991/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_60) For the ex-Stanford student: I got your It’s Not Fair _right here_. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-fired-or-expelled-punishment-not-being-hired-or-accepted-you-arent-owed-anything/833372/52 "2019-05-06T17:44:31Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I agree that they are different. I don’t consider the hardship that someone brings upon themselves as the result of being found lying a justification for going easy on them. I’m playing a bit of Devil’s Advocate\* here for the “it’s punishment” side. Let’s say you view the student as a relative innocent in the whole mess. She did what her parents told her to do, signed what they told her to sign, etc. Now, with these crimes having been uncovered, her future is in tatters. She is expelled, and schools that would have openly welcomed her based on her high school academics may no longer allow her to attend, since she participated in the fraud. Given the position that she was innocently following her parents instructions, she can almost appear to be a victim of their crime, along with the school and other students. She isn’t a victim, not really, but this whole thing has pretty well screwed her future. \*My own view is a bit more pragmatic. Her application was fraudulent, in material ways. She can’t be allowed to continue studies at Stanford. It’s not about punishing her, it’s about having integrity in the application process. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-fired-or-expelled-punishment-not-being-hired-or-accepted-you-arent-owed-anything/833372/53 "2019-05-06T20:15:01Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > I’m playing a bit of Devil’s Advocate\* here for the “it’s punishment” side. > > Let’s say you view the student as a relative innocent in the whole mess. She did what her parents told her to do, signed what they told her to sign, etc. Now, with these crimes having been uncovered, her future is in tatters. She is expelled, and schools that would have openly welcomed her based on her high school academics may no longer allow her to attend, since she participated in the fraud. > > Given the position that she was innocently following her parents instructions, she can almost appear to be a victim of their crime, along with the school and other students. She isn’t a victim, not really, but this whole thing has pretty well screwed her future. > > \*My own view is a bit more pragmatic. Her application was fraudulent, in material ways. She can’t be allowed to continue studies at Stanford. It’s not about punishing her, it’s about having integrity in the application process. People keep suggesting that expulsion = life in tatters. I know it can be very inconvenient and it can definitely set back someone’s plan to graduate in four years. But I am really curious if it is the devastating thing people are assuming it is. If someone gets expelled from a school, are they blacklisted from all colleges and universities forever after? Or is it relatively easy to just regroup at another institution, especially if you can pay full freight? Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-fired-or-expelled-punishment-not-being-hired-or-accepted-you-arent-owed-anything/833372/54 "2019-05-06T22:11:36Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > But I am really curious if it is the devastating thing people are assuming it is. If someone gets expelled from a school, are they blacklisted from all colleges and universities forever after? Or is it relatively easy to just regroup at another institution, especially if you can pay full freight? Upper tier colleges are already crazy competitive. Applicants have to do an insane amount of extracurricular activities and get really high grades. That’s why we have all this cheating. So, suffice it to say, this kind of flaw on your record pretty much wrecks any possibility of getting into another top-tier school, even one lower on the totem pole. Of course public universities and community colleges are more than happy to work with anybody who can pay. Former expelled students can still get a very good education there. But top-tier schools aren’t really about a premium education, they’re about maintaining (or moving up) one’s socioeconomic class. I happen to not care what happens to them at all. I think the whole premium-tier college thing is ridiculously overblown. But I’d describe it as a fairly serious loss with significant future consequences. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-fired-or-expelled-punishment-not-being-hired-or-accepted-you-arent-owed-anything/833372/55 "2019-05-06T23:32:28Z")
> [@HMS\_Irruncible](#): > > Upper tier colleges are already crazy competitive. Applicants have to do an insane amount of extracurricular activities and get really high grades. That’s why we have all this cheating. So, suffice it to say, this kind of flaw on your record pretty much wrecks any possibility of getting into another top-tier school, even one lower on the totem pole. > > Of course public universities and community colleges are more than happy to work with anybody who can pay. Former expelled students can still get a very good education there. But top-tier schools aren’t really about a premium education, they’re about maintaining (or moving up) one’s socioeconomic class. > > I happen to not care what happens to them at all. I think the whole premium-tier college thing is ridiculously overblown. But I’d describe it as a fairly serious loss with significant future consequences. [Does it matter where you go to school?](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/12/does-it-matter-where-you-go-college/577816/) > [@](#): > > The simplest answer to the question “Do elite colleges matter?” is: It depends on who you are. In the big picture, elite colleges don’t seem to do much extra for rich white guys. But if you’re not rich, not white, or not a guy, the elite-college effect is huge. It increases earnings for minorities and low-income students, and it encourages women to delay marriage and work more, even though it doesn’t raise their per-hour wages. If someone got expelled from, say, Stanford and then applied to, say, UofChicago, how would UofChicago know the student had been expelled? I could see them knowing only if the student tried to transfer credits. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2019, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-fired-or-expelled-punishment-not-being-hired-or-accepted-you-arent-owed-anything/833372/56 "2019-05-06T23:49:30Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > She isn’t a victim, not really, but this whole thing has pretty well screwed her future. If your dad is rich enough to have $6.5 million to throw at the school of your choice, your future is not screwed. You are among the luckiest people on the planet, even if you are forced to change course and go to another college. The truth is no one in their right mind would want to stay at this school after being outed as a fraud. You’d become a walking distraction to everyone on campus. People’s stares and comments would haunt you; school would cease to be a place where you could actually learn. So her getting kicked out is like putting a terminally ill animal out of its misery, if we’re going to be honest. This is another angle the “it’s punishment!” camp should consider. If she has no choice but to leave the school, it means she’s not prolonging a situation that is bad for her, the school, and the other students there. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2019, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-fired-or-expelled-punishment-not-being-hired-or-accepted-you-arent-owed-anything/833372/57 "2019-05-07T00:45:15Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > [Does it matter where you go to school?](https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/12/does-it-matter-where-you-go-college/577816/) Yeah, I mean, your cite subtitle says: “Research suggests that elite colleges don’t really help rich white guys. **But they can have a big effect if you’re not rich, not white, or not a guy**.” (bolding mine). > [@](#): > > If someone got expelled from, say, Stanford and then applied to, say, UofChicago, how would UofChicago know the student had been expelled? I could see them knowing only if the student tried to transfer credits. You still have to apply, you still have to submit your academic history and personal bio. You will want to leave out the partial year you got expelled from Stanford. They will want to know what you did with that time. It’s extremely rare for high-achieving students to take a gap year after high school. You could say you studied abroad or did a fellowship, but these things are easily checked. You probably scrubbed your social media of references to “woohoo Stanford”, but traces are still out there, and they will be looking. You could say you went to Stanford and left “for personal reasons”, leaving open the question of why they wouldn’t let you come back after just a semester off. If you’re paying full freight, I imagine there would be less interest in your checkered past. If it’s a not-very-competitive school and you’re not on scholarship, I doubt they’ll care much. But… this is now your life. Non-competitive schools and no scholarships. If you’re rich it’s still a very lucky life, but it will cost you your shot at ascending to (or remaining in) the upper-upper class of meritocracy. Again, not that I really care. But it’s a punishment and it’s gonna leave a mark. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2019, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-fired-or-expelled-punishment-not-being-hired-or-accepted-you-arent-owed-anything/833372/58 "2019-05-07T01:45:41Z")
> [@HMS Irruncible](#): > > Yeah, I mean, your cite subtitle says: “Research suggests that elite colleges don’t really help rich white guys. But they can have a big effect if you’re not rich, not white, or not a guy.” (bolding mine). Here is another article that digs deeper, since you seem to be taking a different message from the Atlantic article than I did: [Private colleges are a waste of money for white middle class kids](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2014/12/18/private-colleges-are-a-waste-of-money-for-white-middle-class-kids/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.ab99de5823f7) > [@](#): > > Economists Stacy Dale of Mathematica Policy Research and Alan Krueger of Princeton have examined this problem carefully. > > Relying on a survey of graduates from about two dozen colleges and other data, they compared students who applied to the most selective schools when they were in 12th grade against those who applied to schools that were still selective, albeit less so. Dale and Krueger reasoned that those who applied to the most exclusive schools were more ambitious or had more potential as judged by their parents, teachers and counselors. > > The two economists found that the students with more potential made more as adults, and the students with less made less – no matter where they went to school. They conclude that how much you make depends on you, not where you get in. > > Although the study concentrated on graduates of prestigious schools, Krueger wrote in an email that the logic of the study could likely be extended to other schools as well. If there’s minimal to no gain to attending an elite private university, there’s almost certainly zero gain from paying to apply for a less selective private university. > > … > > These findings do not apply in every individual case. There’s great variation in graduation rates among private colleges and among public universities, and going to a school where you’re less likely to graduate puts your future earnings at risk. But these results do hold an important lesson for most kids who are white and whose parents also graduated from college – a huge group of college applicants. > > … > > The answer is much more complicated for blacks, Hispanics and those whose parents are comparatively less educated. > > In Dale and Krueger’s research, these groups did seem to make more money after attending more selective schools. > > The authors suggest that attending an elite school might provide these students with access to a new social circle that provides them with more economic opportunities later in life. Children of well-educated whites might already have that access and so don’t gain anything from attending an elite school. Sometimes, it’s who you know. The inference I’m drawing from this research is that college prestige doesn’t do anything to “maintain” ones socioeconomic status provided one is rich and/or middle-class white. If you belong to either of the two categories, your socioeconomic status is not at risk if you were to pick a very good state school over an elite private school. Only if you come from a stigmatized group will it make a difference. This doesn’t discount the very real perception people have about how much prestige matters. I’m sure all the high school seniors who attempt to commit suicide because they didn’t get accepted to the “right” school have been told all their lives that their future success rides on going to the most selective schools. Wish we could do a better job at pushing back against this narrative. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2019, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-fired-or-expelled-punishment-not-being-hired-or-accepted-you-arent-owed-anything/833372/59 "2019-05-07T10:35:57Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > People keep suggesting that expulsion = life in tatters. I know it can be very inconvenient and it can definitely set back someone’s plan to graduate in four years. This is fair, I was a bit hyperbolic in my devil’s advocate role. ---
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2019, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-fired-or-expelled-punishment-not-being-hired-or-accepted-you-arent-owed-anything/833372/60 "2019-05-07T11:03:29Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Here is another article that digs deeper First, I also answered in good faith your OP-topical question about how expulsion affects subsequent applications. You ignored that so I guess that means you get it? Second, I didn’t “take a different message” from the Atlantic article, I literally just narrated the second line of the cite you provided (and then I guess abandoned). Your next cite deals with efficiency private schools _in general_. Yes, any typical private school is likely to be less tuition-efficient than any random public school. I wasn’t speaking to typical private schools, I was speaking to the hyper-competitive Browns and Cornells and Stanford where you access more than just an education. Though I will point out - whether public or private, there’s literally _nothing_ more financially efficient, or harder to re-acquire, than a full ride scholarship to any university. I mention this because it’s one of the cases involved in the current cheating scandal. I was speaking to loss of opportunity so, if you’re gonna beat the drum about tuition efficiency, have fun with that. I have 2 kids looking at college on limited means and I assure you I’m already well aware of Google’s conventional wisdom on the matter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-fired-or-expelled-punishment-not-being-hired-or-accepted-you-arent-owed-anything/833372.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-fired-or-expelled-punishment-not-being-hired-or-accepted-you-arent-owed-anything/833372.md?page=4)