# Getting into heaven **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 17, 2001, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-into-heaven/62259 "2001-04-17T06:40:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ssj\_man2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ssj\_man2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ssj_man2k)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2001, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-into-heaven/62259/1 "2001-04-17T06:40:12Z")
Christians make it seem as if that if you don’t believe in god, you wont get into heaven. No matter how good you are, you won’t get in. What if someone is bad, and then suddenly repents on his death bed, does he get in? That seems highly unfair, if he was bad and gets in, but someone is good and doesn’t get in. I think that all you have to do is be a good person. As long as you have a good heart and good soul, and are truely good, (you don’t just do good things to seem that way), then you should get in, even if you don’t believe in god. It seems to me that if god does require such a strong belief, he must have a huge ego. I mean, i’m a good person, but i find it hard to believe in god in the Christian sense. Does that mean i will go to hell? That seems awfully stupid that i would. But if i dont believe in that god, then why do i care about that heaven? Well, call it an insurance policy. This way, i don’t have to fear death, and i have something to look forward to for putting up with the common dumbass. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2001, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-into-heaven/62259/2 "2001-04-17T07:00:03Z")
What makes you think that you need some sort of approbation from Christians? You’re gonna go to Heaven if you’re a decent person. Simple as that. Besides, Heaven is whatever you want it to be. My Heaven differs from yours. As I’m sure yours differs from others. Don’t fixate so much on labels. If you’re good, you go. ---
**Author:** ![Kalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Kalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalt)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2001, 7:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-into-heaven/62259/3 "2001-04-17T07:00:52Z")
hint: christianity is stupid. you can rape 50 little children, chop up their bodies and masturbate on the young body-chunks… and as long as you love jesus and repent - yer goin’ straight to heaven (and the murdered kids’ parents who are in heaven to will love you, because heaven is full of love). Christianity is popular because everyone can go to heaven. Sounds great, pass the donation basket. ---
**Author:** ![Kalt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Kalt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalt)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2001, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-into-heaven/62259/4 "2001-04-17T07:06:30Z")
to should be too… i type fast when i am in a cynical mood. ---
**Author:** ![Philosophocles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b38774/32.png) [@Philosophocles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philosophocles)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2001, 7:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-into-heaven/62259/5 "2001-04-17T07:08:28Z")
Dante Alghieri wrote a little divine comedy that included a tour of the Inferno. Dante had the notion that people in hell were subjected to different levels of torture–from the virtuous pagans who were merely subjected to boredom and dreary scenery to the murderers, rapists, and traitors who were really tortured in the lower depths. Of course, Dante didn’t write the Bible, and the Bible itself is kind of sketchy on the details of hell. The word “Gehenna” appears in the New Testament, referring to the “valley of the sons of Hinnom”–a dump on the outskirts of Jerusalem where garbage was burned. The Old Testament usually referred to “Sheol”–which may have once been thought of as an extinction of individual consciousness. The prevailing view of Sheol was of a shadowy existence akin to the the Greek Hades–not as a punishment. However, there are some folks of the opinion that an atheist who tries to live a fairly virtuous life will spend eternity in the same extreme torment as Hitler, serial killers, and child molestors. Two people ate a little fruit a long time ago, therefore if you even give someone a cross look or take the last piece of pie without asking everyone’s permission, you are bound for the same horrific fate as the thuggish dictator who orchestrates the murder of millions. The early Christian thinker Tertullian writes of the joy of the faithful to watch the smoke rise up from the torment of the damned in hell. But maybe Tertullian’s sadistic thirst for revenge was shaped by his knowledge of many Christians in his community who had been torn to shreds in spectacle shows. The notions of heaven and hell have a special appeal because people want to trust that God is both sovereign and provident, and yet providence doesn’t seem to manifest itself all the time in our world. Sometimes good people suffer and are not vindicated in this life. Sometimes bad people enjoy success while doing profound evil, and never quite get a “come-uppance” in this life. This is an idea conveyed in parables such as “The Rich Man and Lazarus”, where Jesus tells of a very wealthy man and a very poor man whose fortunes are reversed in the afterlife. ---
**Author:** ![ssj\_man2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ssj\_man2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ssj_man2k)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2001, 8:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-into-heaven/62259/6 "2001-04-17T08:45:22Z")
Thanx for the feedback. Especially that last one. ---
**Author:** ![Cyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a88e4f/32.png) [@Cyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyn)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-into-heaven/62259/7 "2001-04-18T01:27:22Z")
IMO, if you are truely good, you go to Heaven. If you are merely selfish, but not evil, you don’t. You have to wait. I was raised Catholic and like the notion of Purgatory. A non-Christian who is a good person goes to Heaven. A Christian who backstabs and gossips has to go to Purgatory first. Purgatory is really full!! ---
**Author:** ![trickie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b487fb/32.png) [@trickie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/trickie)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-into-heaven/62259/8 "2001-04-18T01:55:31Z")
> [@](#): > > ``` > hint: christianity is stupid. > > ``` I agree but it’s hard to not like Billy Graham. ---
**Author:** ![Azura\_Borealis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7ab992/32.png) [@Azura\_Borealis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azura_Borealis)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-into-heaven/62259/9 "2001-04-18T02:38:42Z")
ssj\_man2k You said: Christians make it seem as if that if you don’t believe in god, you wont get into heaven. ```auto Well technically - The Bible Says That. Not Just Christians. The Bible Said This Prior To Christ's Existance - So It really didn't begin as a "Christian" rule. After Christ Was Born, And Fulfilled His Prophecy, The New Testament, And What You Call "Christians" Said That "Whosoever believeth upon Christ, Will Have Everlasting Life" Meaning, if you believe in Christ's life, trials, purpose, and fulfillment, then Heaven Awaits You. Christians, as you say, believe that you must accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah prior to going to heaven, Older Religions, such as Judaism - stipulate only that your faith lie in God. Others state that your good works are what get you into heaven, while still others state that heaven awaits all - no matter who they are or what they have done. But My Question to you is this. If you are not a believer in God - Why are you concerned with Heaven, or going there? Heaven has always been associated with "God" not with Aliens, or Darwin, or Even The Jolly Green Giant. If you don't believe in God - Why are you bothered so much by what people of another faith believe is right? Maybe you should have this discussion with your God. Because God is the only one who can 100% factually answer your question. Or perhaps, make an appointment to meet with a Priest, A Deacon, Or Various Members of Different Religious Denominations, and get a take on all of their views, so that you can make a better formed opinion on your questions. Religion is based on a personal relationship or faith, not based on what other people tell you to believe. Believe what you feel is "right" I am a christian - I do believe that Jesus Christ was the Messiah - but while this is my belief - The one rule in the bible that should always be taken into consideration is "Do Not Judge, Lest Ye Shall Be Judged" It is not my place to say that Other religions (or anything else) are wrong, because I have not died, nor gone to heaven, nor received every answer that lies in the world - I can only live based upon what I have found to be right for me. And hope that every other person who finds faith in their religion, no matter what it is - Is at peace with the faith they have found to be true. If you feel that your faith is in the right place, then focus on what you feel to be correct, don't let the world tell you what to believe. Find the truth in yourself, and just be happy. ``` ---
**Author:** ![ITR\_champion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/c67d28/32.png) [@ITR\_champion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ITR_champion)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-into-heaven/62259/10 "2001-04-18T04:23:29Z")
Say that you’re a religious leader, and you want to make sure that followers can meet their recruitment goals. Which of the following interpretations of an unspecific text do you think would make it easier to get converts: 1.) It doesn’t matter whether you join our religion or not, because everyone can get a good deal in the afterlife if they do good deeds on Earth. 2.) You have to join us or go to Hell. Choosing option 2 also makes it easier to keep your converts once they’ve joined up. ---
**Author:** ![Opus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/858c86/32.png) [@Opus1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Opus1)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-into-heaven/62259/11 "2001-04-18T04:31:56Z")
To Azura Borealis: This is not German. In English, we don’t capitalize the first letter of all of our words. But, consideringthenumberofpeoplewhotypelikethis, OR LIKE THIS, I suppose I shouldn’t complain. > [@](#): > > If you are not a believer in God - Why are you concerned with Heaven, or going there? Heaven has always been associated with “God” not with Aliens, or Darwin, or Even The Jolly Green Giant. Really? I have it on good authority that there exist people who believe in an afterlife but not a deity. > [@](#): > > If you don’t believe in God - Why are you bothered so much by what people of another faith believe is right? It bothers me because all people should give serious thought to their belief systems. We can never know for certain whether God exists or not. But, for those who accept his existence for whatever reason, they should still form good, moral world views. IMHO, a world view which holds that billions of people will be tortured for all of eternity because of their beliefs, and that this punishment is just, is a bit scary, regardless of its veracity. > [@](#): > > Maybe you should have this discussion with your God. Because God is the only one who can 100% factually answer your question. Certainly. Please tell me how to reach him and I will ask him. > [@](#): > > Religion is based on a personal relationship or faith, not based on what other people tell you to believe. Believe what you feel is “right” Funny, but somewhere around 95% of people who grow up Hindu stay Hindu later in life. Ditto for Buddhists, Muslims, Sikhs, etc. Basically, the overwhelming majority of people embrace whatever belief system they grew up with. That is, the belief system that other people told them to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Azura\_Borealis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7ab992/32.png) [@Azura\_Borealis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azura_Borealis)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-into-heaven/62259/12 "2001-04-18T06:05:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Opus1 \* > \*\*To Opus1: > > > [@](#): > > > > This is not German. In English, we don’t capitalize the first letter of all of our words. But, consideringthenumberofpeoplewhotypelikethis, OR LIKE THIS, I suppose I shouldn’t complain. > > I agree with you there - This wasn’t a “How my punctuation affected my entrance into Heaven” thread. And apparently you have far too much time on your hands to notice something as trivial. > > > [@](#): > > > > Really? I have it on good authority that there exist people who believe in an afterlife but not a deity. > > Oh i just love the “Holier Than Thou” Attitude - Must Drive the Chicks WILD. I’m sure that this is factual - I didn’t reply with the intent to write a thesus on all possibilities, I replied with a few thoughts and asked a few questions - Toward the original posting member. I was asking a question, not stating a fact - he may believe that very thing, he may believe something different, I don’t know - That’s why i “asked”. > > > [@](#): > > > > Certainly. Please tell me how to reach him and I will ask him. > > How do you pray? Or do you? Prayer is what people consider “Communication With Their Higher Power” And that is what I meant. Prayer, Self Analyzation, Soul Searching, Meditation, Chanting, Among other things, are forms of communicating with God, your concience, or whomever it is people spiritually seek wisdom from. > > Religion is based on a personal relationship or faith, not based on what other people tell you to believe. Believe what you feel is “right” > > > [@](#): > > > > Funny, but somewhere around 95% of people who grow up Hindu stay Hindu later in life. Ditto for Buddhists, Muslims, Sikhs, etc. Basically, the overwhelming majority of people embrace whatever belief system they grew up with. That is, the belief system that other people told them to believe. > > Funny? I see nothing humorous in that - He may have been one of the other 5% - Like myself - who found, or will find their belief system completely on their own. My religious influence was drastically different than what it is to date - and that is so because i spiritually sought wisdom, and answers that I felt in my soul, were accurate. I cannot say that all of the answers I found were perfect, or 100% pleasing to me, but they were in turn what i felt to be truth. And that is how i live - By personal truth I sought out and gained by way of prayer, concious awareness and meditation. > If you look at all religions - they all have one thing in common - They each have a founding base, and the base of each “religion” that exists - did what they thought was seeking earnest spiritual insight, and concluded the basis of their religion on the truth that they found to be accurate for them. > > And what about those people who convert religions? Or those who convert from no religion to Full Religion. Those ratio’s are far greater than you realize, to claim 95% of all people remain in their original religious teachings until death. While I will agree that the vast majority of people who are brought up within a strict religious setting, tend to find their own truth in what they have been taught, and do stay there - But there are also a vast majority of people who openly seek religious truth, outside their own denomination. That’s called “Open Mindedness” Try it out sometime. > > And considering that about 20% of the world are Athiest, And Probably an Equal Amount are Darwin Followers… I would recalculate before you use a mathmatical ratio to defend your mockings of one persons mildly opinionated reply. > > In my post I also stated that i believed no other persons religion to be wrong - Nor did I claim that mine was right for others, I simply stated my personal thoughts, asked a few questions, and made a few suggestions. > > You are free to believe whatever you so choose - and so is every other person who walks this earth - I did not/do not “shove” my beliefs down anyones throat. A question was posed - and just like you, i added my thoughts … To the original thread posting member. Not to his responders. Of course there will always be Cynics. Toward Everything. > > Religious and Political Debates will always draw the most bickering - why do you suppose that is? Because Religion & Politics are very personalized subjects. I guess that would be like forcing you to wear the custom tailored jockstrap of a really well hung athlete … if it doesn’t fit you right, you’ll complain until someone gives in and adjusts it to your liking. > > It’s all a matter of personal opinion, and personal truth. > Definately not something that should be picked on. If you don’t share another persons belief, and you don’t like it - Why not just leave them alone unless they sincerily seek YOUR advice? Do you value your own truths so much to be the only correct ones, that you are willing to judge the rest of the world and waste your time nitpicking anothers? > > Don’t try to pluck a thorn out of your brothers eye, when you have a tree branch stuck in your own. > > \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Opus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/858c86/32.png) [@Opus1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Opus1)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-into-heaven/62259/13 "2001-04-18T07:23:17Z")
> [@](#): > > And what about those people who convert religions? Or those who convert from no religion to Full Religion. Those ratio’s are far greater than you realize, to claim 95% of all people remain in their original religious teachings until death. While I will agree that the vast majority of people who are brought up within a strict religious setting, tend to find their own truth in what they have been taught, and do stay there - But there are also a vast majority of people who openly seek religious truth, outside their own denomination. That’s called “Open Mindedness” Try it out sometime. Okay, what percentage of people do you believe switch religions in their lifetime? > [@](#): > > How do you pray? Or do you? I do not. I’ve found from personal experience that people who pray to God tend to get radically different answers, even when asking simple questions. This indicates to me that prayer is not a vild method of divining God’s beliefs/nature. > [@](#): > > And considering that about 20% of the world are Athiest, And Probably an Equal Amount are Darwin Followers… Oh boy. Darwinism is a religion. Gotcha loud and clear. (Note to self: there is a reason why I make it a rule not to respond to people with \<10 posts under their belt. Let’s follow it next time) This thread started with a relatively simple question: is the Christian doctrine of salvation fair based upon our standard human understanding of morality? I believe that it is not. Firstly, it is binary: Heaven or Hell, black and white, no in between. I find it hard to believe that an all-knowing, completely intelligent being could find no better way of sorting people out after death than this. Secondly, it is based upon belief, not upon actions. Belief is often determined in childhood, molded into impressionable young minds, who are then unable to shake these beliefs later in life, no matter how divergent with reality they may be. This seems intrinsically unfair. Thirdly, even if entrance Heaven is granted based upon actions, we know from psychology that there are many biochemical factors which alter behavior and attitude, over which we have little control. It seems unfair for God to judge people based upon things over which they cannot exert any control. This is especially true in an historical context. A person with depression 100 years ago may have earned himself a 1-way ticket to Hell through committing suiced. Today, he gets anti-depressants and lives a model life. Many more objections can be made. Frankly, I think the whole idea of Heaven and Hell sounds more like the product of an unimaginative mind, merely extending existing legal ideas of punishment and reward, rather than the system that a just and wise God would use to rule the universe. ---
**Author:** ![Azura\_Borealis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7ab992/32.png) [@Azura\_Borealis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Azura_Borealis)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-into-heaven/62259/14 "2001-04-18T09:47:23Z")
1. Too Much Time On Your Hands. 2. Huge Self Admiration Factor. 3. Someone Thinks Far Too Highly Of His “Opinions” By Way Of Beating The Sh\*\* Out Of Them, As If They Were Fact. 4. God Complex Perhaps? I Think So. 5. Try Getting A Job. 6. Definately Not Worth Your Closed Minded Brain’s Weight In Effort, To Argue With. Nor Will I Again. 7. Try Accepting That All Indivuals Are Just That - Individual. Cease In Your Conquest To Appear Socially Brilliant, Because You Reject All Ideas That Weren’t Spawned From Your Own Mind. 8. You Didn’t Create The World - So You Don’t Know All The Answers. Just Face It - Because Arguing Won’t Ever Change That. 9. Put Down The Mt. Dew And Just Sleep. ---
**Author:** ![Journeyman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/779978/32.png) [@Journeyman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Journeyman)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2001, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-into-heaven/62259/15 "2001-04-18T22:41:50Z")
The doctrine of salvation through faith alone does not specify that one must live up to certain moral standards, but it does carry with it the assumption that a person truly in touch with God will not kill, or rape, or steal, etc. That said, many people claim to be faithful, but do not truly believe, or worse, wear faith on thier sleeve, parading God around like a trophy. Whether salvation through faith alone is fair is another question. I take issue with the belief of certain sects, that they and only they understand the truth, and that everyone who does not believe exactly as they do will burn eternally for it. I consider such arguments arrogant to the extreme. I prefer to believe that all faiths worship the same power, who has chosen, for reasons we might not understand, to introduce some variation in it’s means of presenting itself to us. Secondly, I think the idea of a diety willing to damn someone to eternal torment for ending up in the wrong denomination raises serious doubts about the justness or morality of said diety. If I find Islam, or Hinduism comforting, if I take solace in them, if I truly believe what they teach, am I likely to throw them aside because another faith claims to be right? If I am so faithless, who is to say I truly believed in the first place? Why should I suffer for an eternity because I was not born and raised by parents who happened to be “right?” ---
**Author:** ![Amedeus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Amedeus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amedeus)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2001, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-into-heaven/62259/16 "2001-04-19T00:47:44Z")
**Azura Borealis** : What makes you think that Darwinism is a religion? (you imply that by saying “followers”) What of those that don’t follow his guidelines of natural selection? Are they followers of a seperate denomonation? like protestants splitting from the church of england? Im curious as to what makes you think this.