# Getting legal counsel before murdering somebody **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 10, 2014, 9:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-legal-counsel-before-murdering-somebody/698059 "2014-09-10T09:47:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![bengangmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@bengangmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bengangmo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-legal-counsel-before-murdering-somebody/698059/21 "2014-09-11T06:56:25Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > OK. That’s not what prior restraint means, but I understand what you’re saying. It’s not an accurate statement about the way the law works - especially since there’s no right to attempt a murder - and I think it’s bad policy. > > At any rate, like **susan** hinted at, attorney-client privilege is a creature of fiction. We certainly have the ability to modify it in situations where it doesn’t serve us effectively. A situation where a murder that could have been not a murder ends up being completed because we have a rule that says we have to say “let’s wait to see where he’s going with this” is just such a situation. In a situation like this - can you go to a judge, and ask for a second opinion without breaking the privilege? ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f475e1/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Chitwood)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-legal-counsel-before-murdering-somebody/698059/22 "2014-09-11T13:04:26Z")
We have confidential ethics hotlines through our state bar associations that we can call to get opinions without giving any details about our clients. It’s also acceptable to get a second opinion from other attorneys based on hypothetical facts, and that happens pretty frequently. “Let’s say I have a client who told me…” ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-legal-counsel-before-murdering-somebody/698059/23 "2014-09-11T13:12:20Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > In a situation like this - can you go to a judge, and ask for a second opinion without breaking the privilege? In the Ontario rule, it is suggested “where practicable” that a lawyer get a court order justifying disclosure. Obvioulsy, if the would-be client is proposing to murder someone tomorrow, that will not be “practicable” due to time constraints. ---
**Author:** ![Leo\_Bloom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leo_bloom/32/10377_2.png) [@Leo\_Bloom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leo_Bloom)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-legal-counsel-before-murdering-somebody/698059/24 "2014-09-11T13:25:35Z")
> [@Jimmy\_Chitwood](#): > > We have confidential ethics hotlines through our state bar associations that we can call to get opinions without giving any details about our clients… This is fascinating. I wonder if cops have them. /not sarcasm ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-legal-counsel-before-murdering-somebody/698059/25 "2014-09-11T13:40:03Z")
Florida is unusual in _requiring_ disclosure to prevent the commission of a crime: > [@](#): > > (b) **When Lawyer Must Reveal Information**. A lawyer must reveal such information to the extent the lawyer reasonably believes necessary: > (1) to prevent a client from committing a crime; or > (2) to prevent a death or substantial bodily harm to another. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-legal-counsel-before-murdering-somebody/698059/26 "2014-09-11T14:04:08Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > This is fascinating. > I wonder if cops have them. /not sarcasm Not that I’ve ever heard of. Several major city bar associations in Ohio have attorney ethics hotlines; I don’t believe the Ohio State Bar Assn. does: [http://www.clemetrobar.org/Committees/Ethics\_Professionalism/](http://www.clemetrobar.org/Committees/Ethics_Professionalism/) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-legal-counsel-before-murdering-somebody/698059/27 "2014-09-11T14:15:40Z")
> [@Leo\_Bloom](#): > > I wonder if cops have them. /not sarcasm Most law enforcement agencies of sufficient size have their own “in house” counsel. I doubt taking ethics questions from officers in the field is a frequent occurrence, though. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-legal-counsel-before-murdering-somebody/698059/28 "2014-09-11T14:19:27Z")
There are two ways that an attorney can disclose information. Voluntarily, according to professional ethics, or compelled to, as a sworn witness in a court of law. Which type are we talking about here? Let’s say the client asks the attorney a “what if” question, and is later arrested and charged with, say, assault with a deadly weapon, but no murder occurs. Can said attorney then be called as a witness for the prosecution, and be compelled to testify under oath about the conversation he had had with the client, which would be relevant to establishing the defendant’s intent? Or does he have confidentiality protection? There is clearly no imminent crime about to take place, with the defendant already in custody. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-legal-counsel-before-murdering-somebody/698059/29 "2014-09-11T14:24:31Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > In California I was taught in law school that I had to report him to the police and warn the victim. I do not do criminal law, so I can’t say that I remember this correctly from 30 years ago or that it hasn’t changed, but I’m pretty sure it is still the law. Same law applies to mental health (and health) professionals and clergy. > [@susan](#): > > In some states, a client’s intent to commit some kids of harm requires or permits some professionals who normally maintain the client’s privilege or confidentiality to make a disclosure to authorities. If the client’s intent has not produced an arrestable or indictable attempt, conspiracy, or other inchoate offense, what do the police actually _do_? After all, simply intending to commit a crime (“thoughtcrime”) isn’t a crime - it doesn’t become criminal until some substantial step has been performed toward that end. Do the police increase surveillance of the suspect, e.g. by increasing drive-by patrols, running background checks behind the scenes, interviewing friends and relatives, etc., looking for a pretense to arrest? Do they write a letter to the indicated victim saying, “So sorry to bother you, but John B. Robinson told his attorney he wants to kill you. We aren’t doing anything now because he hasn’t committed a crime, but we wanted to let you know.”? ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-legal-counsel-before-murdering-somebody/698059/30 "2014-09-11T14:30:34Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > If the client’s intent has not produced an arrestable or indictable attempt, conspiracy, or other inchoate offense, what do the police actually _do_? After all, simply intending to commit a crime (“thoughtcrime”) isn’t a crime - it doesn’t become criminal until some substantial step has been performed toward that end. Do the police increase surveillance of the suspect, e.g. by increasing drive-by patrols, running background checks behind the scenes, interviewing friends and relatives, etc., looking for a pretense to arrest? Do they write a letter to the indicated victim saying, “So sorry to bother you, but John B. Robinson told his attorney he wants to kill you. We aren’t doing anything now because he hasn’t committed a crime, but we wanted to let you know.”? I think the notion is that, if the information is no longer confidential, recorded in a police file, the would-be criminal would be deterred from actually committing the crime. Not that the cops would arrest him or her, necessarily. After all, this would-be criminal is evidently the careful type, who wants legal advice so he or she can get away with it before attempting it. Telling this person that the cops know all about his or her plan effectively ruins the plan - at least, the “getting away with it” part. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-legal-counsel-before-murdering-somebody/698059/31 "2014-09-11T14:30:45Z")
> [@Donnerwetter](#): > > Let’s assume a man approaches a well-respected criminal defense lawyer and asks for a 4-hour legal counseling session. The man is able and willing to pay in advance for the services the attorney is about to provide. The lawyer agrees. Then the man proceeds to explain that he intends to kill his wife next month. He is confident that he will be able to commit a perfect murder, however, he wants to make sure that he has a thorough understanding of all the legal aspects. > > What would be the attorney’s reaction? The attorney, again, is well-respected and certainly doesn’t want to be criminally liable himself and/or be disbarred for his actions. Would the lawyer: > > (a) Throw the man out of his office and don’t talk about the conversation to anybody? > > (b) Throw the man out of his office and immediately call the police? > > (c) Not call the police, provide the legal services as requested while pointing out emphatically and numerous times that it is illegal and immoral to murder somebody, especially one’s wife? At what point does the man explain that he intends to kill his wife next month? Is this on the phone, when setting up the legal consultation? Or is this at the beginning of the 4-hour consultation? Either way, I’d recommend (d) play along with the guy, but get wired up by the local cops so that they have a good recording of the consultation. If the guy first mentions killing his wife in advance of the consultation, the lawyer has opportunity to arrange this before the guy shows up. If he first mentions it at the consultation, the lawyer can say this wasn’t something he was prepared to give advice on, but that he would be happy to do further research and give advice at a subsequent consultation. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-legal-counsel-before-murdering-somebody/698059/32 "2014-09-11T14:39:10Z")
Setting up potential clients for law enforcement stings is probably not the best way to promote your criminal defense practice. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-legal-counsel-before-murdering-somebody/698059/33 "2014-09-11T16:37:11Z")
For something less serious than murder, I can imagine a good defense attorney, as soon as they catch the slightest beginning of a whiff of where things are going, telling the client to stop talking, and never discuss plans for future illegal activities. That is, after all the best situation for the attorney: they can still give good advice and representation to the client, while avoiding any ethical issues. [Obviously there are a lot of different situations, from a mob lawyer who’s OK with what’s going on but needs plausible deniability, to one who is about to try and convince his client that sending threatening letters to the DA is really not a good idea, to one who is pretty sure his client will continue possessing illegal drugs but can’t do much about it.] ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-legal-counsel-before-murdering-somebody/698059/34 "2014-09-11T18:07:59Z")
> [@](#): > > If the client’s intent has not produced an arrestable or indictable attempt, conspiracy, or other inchoate offense, what do the police actually do? Psych eval, possible warrants. ---
**Author:** ![jbaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jbaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jbaker)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-legal-counsel-before-murdering-somebody/698059/35 "2014-09-11T19:31:58Z")
I can tell you what you’re supposed to do: You’re supposed to give no advice in furtherance of the commission of a crime. Arguably, you are also supposed to warn the wife that her husband wishes to murder her (compare Tarasoff v. Regents of the University of California). Communications of this type are not protected by the attorney-client privilege. As to whether a criminal lawyer would actually do this, I couldn’t say. I would, but I have the luxury of not practising criminal law. The situation came up in 1985, when Paul Gotti asked his lawyer, Bruce Cutler, for advice of this type (posed, unconvincingly, as a hypothetical). The judge disqualified Cutler from representing Gotti at the subsequent criminal trial and scathingly wrote of Cutler as the in-house counsel to the Gambino family, but Cutler did not seem to suffer any other consequences. Wikipedia has more information on both the Tarasoff case and Bruce Cutler. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2014, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-legal-counsel-before-murdering-somebody/698059/36 "2014-09-11T19:56:24Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Setting up potential clients for law enforcement stings is probably not the best way to promote your criminal defense practice. My thought exactly. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-legal-counsel-before-murdering-somebody/698059/37 "2014-09-12T22:05:43Z")
This brings up a question about lawyer’s offices: Are they commonly equipped with concealed recording equipment, and are client conversations routinely recorded? For every 1000 boring consultations, maybe there is one worth all the erasing/over-writing? ---
**Author:** ![jbaker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/59ef9b/32.png) [@jbaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jbaker)\ **Post date:** [September 12, 2014, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-legal-counsel-before-murdering-somebody/698059/38 "2014-09-12T23:36:01Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > This brings up a question about lawyer’s offices: > > Are they commonly equipped with concealed recording equipment, and are client conversations routinely recorded? > > For every 1000 boring consultations, maybe there is one worth all the erasing/over-writing? No, this never happens. It would be a violation of the lawyer’s duty to his or her client to tape the client surreptitiously. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [September 13, 2014, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-legal-counsel-before-murdering-somebody/698059/39 "2014-09-13T00:32:14Z")
In some jurisdictions, it would also be a criminal offence, since in some places, it’s an offence to record a conversation without the consent of all the participants. ---
**Author:** ![usedtobe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@usedtobe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usedtobe)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2014, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-legal-counsel-before-murdering-somebody/698059/40 "2014-09-14T05:23:28Z")
So it comes down to lawyer’s word vs. the accused’s. Lawyer: He told me he was planning to murder his wife! Client: You’re crazy - I was researching a book, and told you so. I’m a published author and my book has 10,000 pre-sales. Cop: OOO\_KKKKKK? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-legal-counsel-before-murdering-somebody/698059.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-legal-counsel-before-murdering-somebody/698059.md?page=3)