# Getting really tired of the Westboro Baptists fuckers... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 20, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-really-tired-of-the-westboro-baptists-fuckers/561339 "2010-11-20T16:44:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-really-tired-of-the-westboro-baptists-fuckers/561339/21 "2010-11-20T19:57:32Z")
This ‘church’ is a really itty bitty congregation that has found great publicity by pushing the right media buttons. I am not going to search to find out how many members it has and boost their Google hits. But really! Walk into your local bar at beer-thirty some afternoon, there are more people in there than belong to this church. Go to a PTA meeting at your little school district out in the sticks, there are more people there than belong to this church. Go to a tire shop this weekend to have your snow tires mounted, there are definitetly more people waiting there than belong to this church. The number of Google hits for this ‘church’ that have been provided by this message board alone must surely number in the hundreds. For one church of a couple dozen, or maybe even several dozen, complete whack jobs. They have an apparently confirmed right to do what they do. But let’s keep a little perspective about this size of the issue. They are a silly fringe element. A small group of nut jobs. Inhale, exhale, you’ll be fine. Each word spoken about these people provides them with power, fuel, and one more news story. ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-really-tired-of-the-westboro-baptists-fuckers/561339/22 "2010-11-20T20:04:33Z")
> [@](#): > > I doubt you’d be intellectual about it in an emotionally charged atmosphere where someone you cared for deeply was being buried and these folk were spewing their hatred at you. Right. That’s why laws shouldn’t be made by people who are deeply emotionally invested in the outcome. Would I be “meh” if someone were picketing my child’s funeral? No, I would not. I don’t know how I would react, but it would definitely not be “meh.” Do I support restricting free speech because I would be outraged in this hypothetical situation? Definitely not. Freedom of speech isn’t “freedom of speech except for speech that upsets me or that I would rather not hear.” Honestly, if you sat down to try to actually come up with a strategy for implementing restrictions on the First Amendment, I don’t think you could do much better than a Phelps-style strategy of offensive picketing. I sometimes wonder if that actually isn’t his ultimate goal, for whatever reason. (Although hearing that they make their income from lawsuits against people provoked into retaliation makes sense too.) ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-really-tired-of-the-westboro-baptists-fuckers/561339/23 "2010-11-20T20:05:38Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > They have an apparently confirmed right to do what they do. But let’s keep a little perspective about this size of the issue. They are a silly fringe element. A small group of nut jobs. Inhale, exhale, you’ll be fine. > > Each word spoken about these people provides them with power, fuel, and one more news story. God forbid you have to bury a loved one in the near future but should it happen and these folk decide to rant at the funeral are you saying you will face it with aplomb? I think that is what people are forgetting here. We do not disregard one murder because hey…keep perspective on the size here as it is just one. If someone does harm is it only judged in the larger scheme? Only a small number of instances so why care? ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-really-tired-of-the-westboro-baptists-fuckers/561339/24 "2010-11-20T20:08:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > My understanding is that their real motivation in doing things like this is to provoke assaults which will allow them to sue for damages – that a lot of their income comes from filing lawsuits and getting settlements. They _want_ people to attack them or try to vandalize their property. That’s their goal. These are trolls. You kill trolls by starving them. Assaulting them, or even acknowledging their existence is feeding them. Dio is an expert in these matters. You should listen to what he says and follow his advice. ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-really-tired-of-the-westboro-baptists-fuckers/561339/25 "2010-11-20T20:12:56Z")
Ok, I went ahead and Googled the fuckers before someone asks me for a cite. In 2007 they had 71 nut job members, mostly 'ole Fred’s extended family. I really doubt that the numbers have increased much since then, although horny and stupid do work well together, so maybe a few more kids have been born. I have a link that goes right here: I will not provide it. Feed Fred’s family on your own. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-really-tired-of-the-westboro-baptists-fuckers/561339/26 "2010-11-20T20:13:28Z")
> [@MsWhatsit](#): > > Right. That’s why laws shouldn’t be made by people who are deeply emotionally invested in the outcome. Would I be “meh” if someone were picketing my child’s funeral? No, I would not. I don’t know how I would react, but it would definitely not be “meh.” > > Do I support restricting free speech because I would be outraged in this hypothetical situation? Definitely not. Freedom of speech isn’t “freedom of speech except for speech that upsets me or that I would rather not hear.” > > Honestly, if you sat down to try to actually come up with a strategy for implementing restrictions on the First Amendment, I don’t think you could do much better than a Phelps-style strategy of offensive picketing. I sometimes wonder if that actually isn’t his ultimate goal, for whatever reason. (Although hearing that they make their income from lawsuits against people provoked into retaliation makes sense too.) Please read the rest of the post you quoted. Free speech absolutely is circumscribed and restricted in the country today. I don’t need to “come up with a strategy for implementing restrictions on the First Amendment”. We’ve already got them I’ll repeat. We all have rights. You do. I do. In society those rights come into conflict. We (society) try to balance those rights. Some we deem more important than others so we give different weight to different rights. Nonetheless we seek to strike a balance all things considered. All makes sense to me so far. Free speech is definitely (and I agree) an important right. But is absolutely has limits. It has them today. Right now. I think busting up the funeral of my daughter is going too far (if I had a daughter which I don’t…just an example). Perhaps you could say them protesting a soldier’s funeral is political speech. I think that case could be made and they get a point in their favor. Still shitty but arguable. Protesting a child’s funeral though? Make that case for me. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-really-tired-of-the-westboro-baptists-fuckers/561339/27 "2010-11-20T20:14:38Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > Ok, I went ahead and Googled the fuckers before someone asks me for a cite. > > In 2007 they had 71 nut job members, mostly 'ole Fred’s extended family. > > I really doubt that the numbers have increased much since then, although horny and stupid do work well together, so maybe a few more kids have been born. Why is this relevant? Hate speech only matters if a lot of people say it? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-really-tired-of-the-westboro-baptists-fuckers/561339/28 "2010-11-20T20:16:49Z")
When did they “bust up” a funeral, and who is condoning that? ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-really-tired-of-the-westboro-baptists-fuckers/561339/29 "2010-11-20T20:19:31Z")
I’m not a constitutional lawyer, but my understanding of the First Amendment is that all speech is protected, unless specifically exempted, e.g. yelling fire in a crowded theater. Standing on a street corner holding up a sign does not fall under one of those exemptions, no matter how obnoxious you find the signs to be. You seem to be using “rights” in some kind of fuzzy “I have the right not to be offended and you have the right to say some stuff, so let’s try to decide which one of us has the more important right in this situation” way. I’m talking about actual constitutional rights afforded to citizens of the United States. The right to not be offended is not in there. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-really-tired-of-the-westboro-baptists-fuckers/561339/30 "2010-11-20T20:23:21Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > If your wife, inconsolable with grief at your daughter’s funeral, was being antagonized and further distressed at these folk would you care? Not to mention other attendees. Would you just tell them they are being unreasonable to be upset hearing the trolls spout vile things? Thing is, in most cases the people at the church can’t even hear what they’re saying, and can barely see their signs and placards. In the Snyder v. Phelps case, originating from a protest at the funeral of a US Marine in Maryland a few years back, the person who brought the suit (the father of the Marine) admitted that he had not even seen the protest on the day of the funeral. Some other people at the funeral had seen the signs, but no-one had heard any “vile things” being spouted because the protest was hundreds of feet away from where the funeral was taking place. The father only saw the signs in the media the next day, reinforcing my earlier argument that the WBC assholes generate most of their outrage in the media rather than at the actual events they attend, and that their cultural visibility far outweighs their numbers because their actions get reported even when they don’t cause any real trouble. If the were actually “busting up” funerals, as you incorrectly suggest, you might have a point. Bu they aren’t, so you don’t. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > That all may well be true but they cause real harm with their activities. You can go all Ghandi on them but it is a lot to expect of people in these situations. I prefer to go all Gandhi myself. I find it’s more effective when you spell in correctly. > [@shy\_guy](#): > > I hate this argument, and it pops up in all sorts of contexts on this board. > > It’s basically saying, “Oh yeah? Well what if you weren’t thinking rationally!” Well, who cares what an irrational person thinks? We shouldn’t base policy on the emotions of hysterical people. Exactly. I’m opposed to the death penalty, and one of the most retarded arguments i’ve had thrown in my face was, “Yeah, well, what if it was your wife/kids/parents/friend who got murdered? Wouldn’t you want the guy who did it dead?” Well, yes, i would. In fact, i would probably want to track the guy down and kill him myself. Which is precisely why i shouldn’t be the one deciding the punishment in my hours of grief, and why we, as a society, have progressed past the point where punishment consists of simple acts of blood payment exacted by the victim’s family. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-really-tired-of-the-westboro-baptists-fuckers/561339/31 "2010-11-20T20:24:58Z")
I hate to sound trite, but I have to say that anyone who doesn’t understand why offensive speech must be protected doesn’t understand the 1st amendment. Non-offensive speech doesn’t risk sanctioning. The “balancing act” is taken care of by the laws proscribing where and when the protests can take place. But eliminate the protest altogether? Nope, not gonna do it. Wouldn’t be prudent. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-really-tired-of-the-westboro-baptists-fuckers/561339/32 "2010-11-20T20:26:39Z")
I’ve never understood this idea that freedom of speech is this ultimate good that it needs to be defended at all costs. The freedom of speech that is useful is the one that says that the government can’t intervene. But, the way it is set up now, we can’t intervene either. DFTT is nice and all, but it doesn’t work, or there wouldn’t be any trolls out there. There is no way to make sure that everyone ignores a troll. And all it takes is one. And there’s another thing. We all rationally can tell that these people are trolling. That’s different from just having and voicing an opinion we don’t like. There is no reason that such speech should be protected. What value do you get out of being able to piss people off? Why is this a fundamental right in the first place? We all pretty much morally reject it, so why can’t we legally? And let’s not kid ourselves. They aren’t a peaceful organization. They will do illegal things if they judge their ability to be caught to be low. And it will eventually sort itself out–as dead people can’t sue. Yes, I do believe they will escalate things to that level. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-really-tired-of-the-westboro-baptists-fuckers/561339/33 "2010-11-20T20:29:12Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > If the were actually “busting up” funerals, as you incorrectly suggest, you might have a point. Bu they aren’t, so you don’t.I prefer to go all Gandhi myself. I find it’s more effective when you spell in correctly. If you want to go there I will note you apparently can’t spell “it” correctly. Unless you meant it is more effective when I spell incorrectly. But then you also spelled that wrong…but would make your argument more effective I guess. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Dallas\_Jones](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dallas_jones/32/3277_2.png) [@Dallas\_Jones](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dallas_Jones)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-really-tired-of-the-westboro-baptists-fuckers/561339/34 "2010-11-20T20:30:44Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > God forbid you have to bury a loved one in the near future but should it happen and these folk decide to rant at the funeral are you saying you will face it with aplomb? Well, **Whack-a-Mole** , I doubt that you will have to bury a loved one, or family member, who died in the line of duty. It seems out of ‘flavor’ of your many posts, all these years. I think you just are full of out raged shit. That you are full of shit, now that is something I can find many cites for. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-really-tired-of-the-westboro-baptists-fuckers/561339/35 "2010-11-20T20:31:13Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I’ve never understood this idea that freedom of speech is this ultimate good that it needs to be defended at all costs. It’s not an “idea,” it’s the law. > [@](#): > > The freedom of speech that is useful is the one that says that the government can’t intervene. But, the way it is set up now, we can’t intervene either. What kind of “intervention” should be legal and what should be the circumstances? ---
**Author:** ![MsWhatsit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/eb8c5e/32.png) [@MsWhatsit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsWhatsit)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-really-tired-of-the-westboro-baptists-fuckers/561339/36 "2010-11-20T20:31:28Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > The freedom of speech that is useful is the one that says that the government can’t intervene. But, the way it is set up now, we can’t intervene either. What intervention are you suggesting here? Beating them up? There are other laws against that. If you’re suggesting some sort of law preventing them from holding a protest, how is that not government intervention? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-really-tired-of-the-westboro-baptists-fuckers/561339/37 "2010-11-20T20:34:13Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I’ve never understood this idea that freedom of speech is this ultimate good that it needs to be defended at all costs. The freedom of speech that is useful is the one that says that the government can’t intervene. But, the way it is set up now, we can’t intervene either. You can intervene when it’s on your property. > [@](#): > > DFTT is nice and all, but it doesn’t work, or there wouldn’t be any trolls out there. There is no way to make sure that everyone ignores a troll. And all it takes is one. “Troll” is not a legal definition. > [@](#): > > And there’s another thing. We all rationally can tell that these people are trolling. No, we can’t. > [@](#): > > And let’s not kid ourselves. They aren’t a peaceful organization. They will do illegal things if they judge their ability to be caught to be low. And it will eventually sort itself out–as dead people can’t sue. Yes, I do believe they will escalate things to that level. You don’t know WTF you’re talking about. They have quite a few lawyers in the ranks and they are scrupulous in obeying the laws. Read an analysis of their defense in the current SCOTUS court case-- done by one of their members. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-really-tired-of-the-westboro-baptists-fuckers/561339/38 "2010-11-20T20:37:54Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#): > > Well, **Whack-a-Mole** , I doubt that you will have to bury a loved one, or family member, who died in the line of duty. > > It seems out of ‘flavor’ of your many posts, all these years. I think you just are full of out raged shit. > > That you are full of shit, now that is something I can find many cites for. They are going to protest children’s funerals (or so they claim). Where is dying in the line of duty there? And why is dying in the line of duty relevant to this discussion? (Except, as I noted before, I think one could maybe make a case that protesting at a soldier’s funeral is a way of protesting the war the soldier was involved in so, political speech). And feel free to point out my being full of shit many times. IIRC I have something like 12000+ posts here so I would not be surprised if you could pull out something from that lot but interested to see it nonetheless. Start a new Pit Thread on it. See where it goes. On the whole I stand by my posts (again allowing I have been stupid or drunk or something in the last 10 years to make a few dumb posts). ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-really-tired-of-the-westboro-baptists-fuckers/561339/39 "2010-11-20T20:38:09Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It’s only speech. Consider the concept of _Fighting Words._ > **[Fighting words](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighting_Words)** > > Fighting words are spoken words intended to provoke a retaliatory act of violence against the speaker. In United States constitutional law, the term describes words that inflict injury or would tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace. > The fighting words doctrine, in United States constitutional law, is a limitation to freedom of speech as protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. > In 1942, the U.S. Supreme Court established the doctrine by a 9–0 decision in Chap... > [@](#): > > Fighting words are written or spoken words, generally expressed to incite hatred or violence from their target. Specific definitions, freedoms, and limitations of fighting words vary by jurisdiction. It is also used in a general sense of words that when uttered create (deliberately or not) a verbal or physical confrontation by their mere usage. > > United States > The fighting words doctrine, in United States constitutional law, is a limitation to freedom of speech as protected by the First Amendment to the United States Constitution. In its 9-0 decision, Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire (1942), the U.S. Supreme Court established the doctrine and held that “insulting or ‘fighting words,’ those that by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace” are among the “well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech [which] the prevention and punishment of…have never been thought to raise any constitutional problem.” ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2010, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-really-tired-of-the-westboro-baptists-fuckers/561339/40 "2010-11-20T20:43:39Z")
The Phelps clan is careful not to do anything that could qualify as “fighting words.” They don’t directly yell at the bereaved or anything. They know what they’re doing. I think people have an erroneous picture of how these protests really operate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-really-tired-of-the-westboro-baptists-fuckers/561339.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-really-tired-of-the-westboro-baptists-fuckers/561339.md?page=3)