# Getting that lesbian toaster oven **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 6, 2005, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-that-lesbian-toaster-oven/324998 "2005-10-06T03:22:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![norinew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/eb9ed0/32.png) [@norinew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/norinew)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-that-lesbian-toaster-oven/324998/21 "2005-10-06T12:58:40Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > Don’t worry love. I’ll do you. > > We’re all omnisexuals in here. A very sweet offer, **Rune**! However, lucky for me, I am _exactly_ militant enough for my husband. As to the OP (in case my first post wasn’t quite clear enough), the very idea that one must be _good enough_ to identify with a particular group of sexual orientation strikes me as obnoxious, pompous, and silly. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-that-lesbian-toaster-oven/324998/22 "2005-10-06T13:36:02Z")
**Johanna** , you’ll have to count me among the posters who do not recognize a debate in your OP. It might be a matter of personal exposition that would fit in **MPSIMS** or (if I could figure out what was being questioned) a poll in **IMHO** , but I do not see the issue that is being presented for actual debate. Please explain the point for discussion or this thread will be moved out of **GD**. (You also need to calm down, a bit. Cussing because someone asks the purpose of your thread is pretty much an overreaction) [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-that-lesbian-toaster-oven/324998/23 "2005-10-06T13:39:34Z")
> [@ambushed](#): > > There’s at least two of you extraordinarily sanctimonious lesbians! You also need to reconsider your posting style. This is the second time in two days that you have overreacted to another’s post with statements that stood right on the line of personal insults and you are on your way toward a formal warning. Calm down. [/Moderator Mode] ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-that-lesbian-toaster-oven/324998/24 "2005-10-06T14:30:38Z")
I think the debate here is, “Is there something besides being a woman who likes to have sex with women that makes one a lesbian?” ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-that-lesbian-toaster-oven/324998/25 "2005-10-06T14:32:03Z")
A suggested debate: is it intellectually coherent to discuss someone being “good enough to be a lesbian”? Or is that roughly equivalent to asking whether someone is “good enough to be Asian,” or “good enough to be atheist”? I think the quote betrays a dogmatic, anti-intellectual worldview that places ideological rigidity as a value greater than mutual respect, compassion, and tolerance. Debate that, suckas! Daniel ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-that-lesbian-toaster-oven/324998/26 "2005-10-06T14:35:43Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > I think the debate here is, “Is there something besides being a woman who likes to have sex with women that makes one a lesbian?” In that case, the answer is no. Lesbians are under no obligation to belong to the hyper-political, butch looking subgroup. Those guys are mostly zealous newbies, like the recently converted Christian who annoys all of their friends. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-that-lesbian-toaster-oven/324998/27 "2005-10-06T14:38:49Z")
> [@Evil Captor](#): > > I think the debate here is, “Is there something besides being a woman who likes to have sex with women that makes one a lesbian?” No, nothing. However, I think what the OP is trying to ask is, “How much respect should she pay to a “lesbian” co-ed who will abandon all romantic ties to women when she graduates college?” ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-that-lesbian-toaster-oven/324998/28 "2005-10-06T14:58:59Z")
Interesting point, **Scott**. How are “lipstick lesbians” (if that is a derogatory name I apoligize) treated by “regular” lesbians, assuming they’re known to be such by the general lesbian community? ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-that-lesbian-toaster-oven/324998/29 "2005-10-06T15:00:53Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > No, nothing. > > However, I think what the OP is trying to ask is, “How much respect should she pay to a “lesbian” co-ed who will abandon all romantic ties to women when she graduates college?” To which I would answer, “if it’s ok to sleep with who one wants, why the heck should it matter if one chooses to sleep with women for some years, and then not after?” As has been pointed out, this boils down to some sense of ‘solidarity’ or something, where those who have some degree of power try to dictate who they will share power with. This isn’t just about college lesbians either. There are many different ‘groups’ who don’t always mesh with the “right” way to be lesbian. **Johanna** herself had an interesting OP about power dynamics that she linked to at the top of this thread. Frankly, I find it kind of interesting that on the one hand you can lament having your lesbian-ism called into question for being too femme on the one hand, and then turn around and question the lesbian-ism of others at the same time. Either being a lesbian is about being attracted to women, or it’s just an affectation or cultural choice. I’d think that at this point it’s pretty well established that it’s the former, so why are so many lesbians unable to affirm that in others? > [@Johanna](#): > > To exist with a lesbian identity in society, I needed to build relationships with other dykes based on mutual acceptance and respect. Maybe for you. But does this mean that people need to stay in the closet until the rest of the lesbian ‘community’ approves their outward projection of their lesbianism? As for my lesbian bona fides, you’ve seen the posts I’ve made on Sappho, quoting her poems in the original Greek along with translation. That’s what you get when a bookish linguistic/literary geek is also lesbian. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-that-lesbian-toaster-oven/324998/30 "2005-10-06T15:03:28Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > No, nothing. > > However, I think what the OP is trying to ask is, “How much respect should she pay to a “lesbian” co-ed who will abandon all romantic ties to women when she graduates college?” No, I think the OP was, at least ostensibly, asking “What ought I to do in order to earn respect from ‘established’ lesbians?”. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-that-lesbian-toaster-oven/324998/31 "2005-10-06T15:08:33Z")
> [@Sam Hell](#): > > Interesting point, **Scott**. How are “lipstick lesbians” (if that is a derogatory name I apologize) treated by “regular” lesbians, assuming they’re known to be such by the general lesbian community? They are known to be lesbians. Period. You are not using a derogatory name, however, but simply the wrong one. A lipstick lesbian is someone who dresses in a perfectly “normal” female mode of dress. However, she does not deny that she is a lesbian. I think the term we are both looking for is a [LUG](http://www.plastic.com/comments.html;sid=02/12/17/17055602;cid=120). > [@Eonwe](#): > > To which I would answer, “if it’s ok to sleep with who one wants, why the heck should it matter if one chooses to sleep with women for some years, and then not after?” As has been pointed out, this boils down to some sense of ‘solidarity’ or something, where those who have some degree of power try to dictate who they will share power with. Not so much solidarity, as hurting others because they are denying the validity of their feelings , and the feelings of their girlfriends. Mark my words, many of these LUGS will find themselves cheating on their husbands, once the kids have left. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-that-lesbian-toaster-oven/324998/32 "2005-10-06T15:12:04Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Not so much solidarity, as hurting others because they are denying the validity of their feelings , and the feelings of their girlfriends. Mark my words, many of these LUGS will find themselves cheating on their husbands, once the kids have left. Why is it acceptable for a person to believe they are straight, and then realize they are gay, but not for someone to think they are gay and later realize they are straight? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-that-lesbian-toaster-oven/324998/33 "2005-10-06T15:16:57Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > Why is it acceptable for a person to believe they are straight, and then realize they are gay, but not for someone to think they are gay and later realize they are straight? I think part of the problem is that they are assumed never to have believed they were gay in the first place, but chose to have supportive relationships, recreational sex, or whatever, with women while they were at college. Why? Maybe so as not to prejudice their future marriages. It probably deserves yet another thread so as not to hijack. But if I’m not off the rails so far, _pretending_ to be gay for the fun aspects thereof, and not committing to the downsides, or else offering substantive evidence that, why yes, it _can_ be nothing more than a choice, is seen as selling out the committed lesbians. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-that-lesbian-toaster-oven/324998/34 "2005-10-06T15:17:28Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Not so much solidarity, as hurting others because they are denying the validity of their feelings , and the feelings of their girlfriends. Mark my words, many of these LUGS will find themselves cheating on their husbands, once the kids have left. So that I’m clear, you’re saying that a “LUG” is hurting others? Because… they’re not dating women anymore? Where are they by definition denying the validity of anyone’s feelings? I don’t deny the validity of my ex’s feelings when I date other people, regardless of gender. Nor do I deny the validity of my own feelings in the past when I date new people. I think I’m missing something in your argument. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-that-lesbian-toaster-oven/324998/35 "2005-10-06T15:19:47Z")
> [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Mark my words, many of these LUGS will find themselves cheating on their husbands, once the kids have left. …Because…? ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-that-lesbian-toaster-oven/324998/36 "2005-10-06T15:26:52Z")
> [@Eonwe](#): > > So that I’m clear, you’re saying that a “LUG” is hurting others? Because… they’re not dating women anymore? Most accounts I have read contain the LUG breaking up with their girlfriend, not because of any good reason, but because of self denial. “OH, I am a girl, and girls can’t really be that way,.” “I was just experimenting”, etc. meets "How could you lead me on like that? :mad: ", "How dare you put down my love for you? :mad: ", “Are you saying the times we shared weren’t real?” Also, it feeds the myth that all a lesbian needs is an experience with a man. > [@Malacandra](#): > > …Because…? Because they are lesbians, they just hid that part from themselves in order to rejoin straight society, have a stereotypical wedding, etc. A few years down the road they find themselves having an affair with the girl’s gym teacher, move out, get divorced, and screw up the feelings of their children. True, it is a big part of them discovering their true identity, but in the meantime the whole family suffers. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-that-lesbian-toaster-oven/324998/37 "2005-10-06T15:31:32Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > But if I’m not off the rails so far, _pretending_ to be gay for the fun aspects thereof, and not committing to the downsides, or else offering substantive evidence that, why yes, it _can_ be nothing more than a choice, is seen as selling out the committed lesbians. OK, I can understand that, but there also seems to be a strong current of: > [@Scott Plaid](#): > > Because they are lesbians, they just hid that part from themselves in order to rejoin straight society, have a stereotypical wedding, etc. to whom I repeat my question: Why is it acceptable for a person to believe they are straight, and then realize they are gay, but not for someone to think they are gay and later realize they are straight? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-that-lesbian-toaster-oven/324998/38 "2005-10-06T15:35:03Z")
> [@This Year's Model](#): > > Why is it acceptable for a person to believe they are straight, and then realize they are gay, but not for someone to think they are gay and later realize they are straight? Because then the girlfriend has to give back the toaster. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-that-lesbian-toaster-oven/324998/39 "2005-10-06T15:36:14Z")
It is completely acceptable. However, it is claimed to happen more then it does. When the false claims of straightness start, then the trouble begins ---
**Author:** ![hawthorne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@hawthorne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hawthorne)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-that-lesbian-toaster-oven/324998/40 "2005-10-06T15:37:02Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > No, I think the OP was, at least ostensibly, asking “What ought I to do in order to earn respect from ‘established’ lesbians?”. More bluntly, how much can the ‘established’ extort from vulnerable people whilst still feeling smug? They just want to wet their beaks, after all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-that-lesbian-toaster-oven/324998.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-that-lesbian-toaster-oven/324998.md?page=3)