# Getting the Star Trek Franchise relit **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 15, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-the-star-trek-franchise-relit/485995 "2009-02-15T21:41:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-the-star-trek-franchise-relit/485995/81 "2009-02-17T21:08:13Z")
> [@YogSosoth](#): > > Mostly, this would allow people to enjoy a new Trek without the fans’ objections to plotholes and timeline mistakes, as even though I liked seeing the Borg or Ferengis in Enterprise, the damage to the Trek continuum was just too great for me to ignore. It went from being fanservice to outright ignorance, and many stupid and desperate attempts at explaining the inconsistencies ruined what little leeway I gave that show during its waning days. And of course, the ending of the series making it a variant of the dream season on _Dallas_ didn’t help at all. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-the-star-trek-franchise-relit/485995/82 "2009-02-17T22:30:48Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > And of course, the ending of the series making it a variant of the dream season on _Dallas_ didn’t help at all. You know what? That was my first reaction too but as I’ve gotten a chance to reflect on it, I’ve come to like the ending. I think Family Guy put it best when they said, talking about the Stewie killing Lois 2-parter (paraphrasing here): Brian: “So you mean it was all a dream” Stewie: “No Brian, it was a _simulation_” Brian: “But don’t you think people would be cheesed off realizing it was all fake?” Stewie: “Well I hoped that they would have enjoyed the ride” Enterprise was, for the most part, kind of bad. There was some interesting things here and there, but I felt that most episodes could have been rehashed on TNG with a different cast and would have turned out the same. For a series based on the founding of the Federation, they hardly showed anything to that effect. Sure, the Vulcans were pricks and there was more Andorians in one season than in a hundred episodes of TOS/TNG/DS9/VOY, but most of it didnt feel like the founding of the Federation or the first deep space voyager of a pioneering warp 3 vessel at all. So that last episode, to me, was about as innovative and interesting as it got and thats why I liked it Plus, I got to see Riker and Troi again! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-the-star-trek-franchise-relit/485995/83 "2009-02-17T22:47:15Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Wrong. The reason you so rarely see utopian futures in movies and TV is that convincingly portraying a society where the standard of living is a great deal higher than that of present day America is difficult, and most of all EXPENSIVE. About the only people doing it are … get this … Star Wars and Star Trek, the two most popular SF franchises there are. > > On the one hand, you have Lucas out on Skywalker Ranch churning out movies with scenes involving hundreds of spacecraft flying through world-spanning cities, on the other hand you got Roger Corman churning out post-apocalyptic dystopias set in some Southern California ghost town whose special effects consist of a few junked cars, whose entire budget would be eaten up by a single 5 second shot from most any Lucas film. > > Utopias are expensive and difficult to convincingly create and dystopias are cheap and easy to convincingly create, which is why so many SF films and TV series are dystopias, but if you CAN manage a convincing utopia, you have yourself a franchise. Except Star Wars isn’t a utopia. Just based on the films, I think it’s questionable whether the average standard of living even approaches present day America. The films show us the royalty of the Republic/Empire, who unsurprisingly live like royalty; but we also see that others are barely scraping by. Sure, everyone seems to be able to afford a droid; but tellingly, that hasn’t led to the abolition of slavery. It just means that there’s another caste treated even worse than slaves. Yes, dystopias are generally cheaper to film, but that’s only because the audience expects a certain quality of spectacle from their science fiction. As **Lemur866** suggests, in principle a post-materialist utopia requires nothing more flashy than a magic box, and people who generally tolerate each other. Contrariwise, the most successful SF dystopias have also been the most expensive to film. **Blade Runner** springs to mind. The **Terminator** and **Robocop** franchises. **The Matrix**. Even the **Mad Max** films got progressively costlier. As for Roger Corman and his no-budget dystopias, I would hazard a guess that his career has earned him even less money than Gene Roddenberry. (Hell, I bet Roddenberry’s still making more money than Corman, despite being dead for 18 years). Hollywood’s had thirty years to hammer out utopian science fiction, since Star Wars proved that special effects were worth paying for. Other than the pre-existing Star Trek property, the silence is fairly deafening. The people who write TV and films know better. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-the-star-trek-franchise-relit/485995/84 "2009-02-17T22:51:31Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I say Harlan won because if you’ve read his original version of **City on the Edge of Forever** you know that the motivation for them being on the planet was drug runners on the Enterprise. Why not - the army was full of drug users. Ellison actually had the consensus view here. I think it’s even simpler than that, really. Ellison wrote a script in which following Roddenberry’s ideals let Hitler win. ---
**Author:** ![Orual](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/779978/32.png) [@Orual](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Orual)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2009, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-the-star-trek-franchise-relit/485995/85 "2009-02-17T23:23:50Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Wrong. The reason you so rarely see utopian futures in movies and TV is that convincingly portraying a society where the standard of living is a great deal higher than that of present day America is difficult, and most of all EXPENSIVE. About the only people doing it are … get this … Star Wars and Star Trek, the two most popular SF franchises there are. Because nothing says ‘utopia’ like a galaxy run by a pair of evil wizards who blow up planets for fun. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-the-star-trek-franchise-relit/485995/86 "2009-02-18T00:56:31Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > I think it’s even simpler than that, really. Ellison wrote a script in which following Roddenberry’s ideals let Hitler win. I don’t agree, for 3 reasons. The trivial one is that if this were not true there would be no conflict. The second is that even Roddenberry didn’t deny the savage past of both human and Vulcan. Saying that pacifism wouldn’t have worked back then isn’t violating his principles. Third, it didn’t even violate the principles of the TOS timeframe, the Enterprise being armed and all. The utopia involved the minimum use of force, but not no use of force. By TNG time, I’ll grant you, the biggest weapon on the Enterprise wasn’t a phaser but was rather Picard’s arrogance. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-the-star-trek-franchise-relit/485995/87 "2009-02-18T01:00:03Z")
> [@Orual](#): > > Because nothing says ‘utopia’ like a galaxy run by a pair of evil wizards who blow up planets for fun. Rereading his post, I see he said the SW universe had a higher standard of living, not that it was a utopia. (Leia in a bikini aside.) I’m dubious about that claim also, but we only see the palaces and the dives, so it is hard to tell. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-the-star-trek-franchise-relit/485995/88 "2009-02-18T01:25:28Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I don’t agree, for 3 reasons. The trivial one is that if this were not true there would be no conflict. The second is that even Roddenberry didn’t deny the savage past of both human and Vulcan. Saying that pacifism wouldn’t have worked back then isn’t violating his principles. Third, it didn’t even violate the principles of the TOS timeframe, the Enterprise being armed and all. The utopia involved the minimum use of force, but not no use of force. True enough, and I don’t intend to suggest that Ellison was ever unsupportive of those principles in general. It’s been a long time since I read any of the accounts of that feud. I hereby retract my hypothesis. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-the-star-trek-franchise-relit/485995/89 "2009-02-18T03:30:57Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > So where is the room for ambition or advancement outside of Starfleet? > > Who makes anything? Why would there be corporations? It’s the same flawed ideal of Communism - that everyone will freely do whatever they are needed to do and that somehow, miraculously, everyone will have all their needs provided for them and society will continue to advance. > > Humans don’t work like that. We should know that by now. But are Star Trek humans genetically the same as modern day humans? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-the-star-trek-franchise-relit/485995/90 "2009-02-18T03:36:23Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > But are Star Trek humans genetically the same as modern day humans? Trek is only set a couple hundred years in the future. I’d say that genetic manipulation wasn’t widespread…the “supermen” like Khan mostly destroyed themselves in war. And in DS9-era Trek, genetically manipulated humans were feared and generally in hiding or in the closet about their genetic makeup (see Julian Bashir). ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-the-star-trek-franchise-relit/485995/91 "2009-02-18T07:12:01Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > True enough, and I don’t intend to suggest that Ellison was ever unsupportive of those principles in general. It’s been a long time since I read any of the accounts of that feud. I hereby retract my hypothesis. Have you read the original script? Having heard the accounts, and having been convinced of Ellison’s genius through his stories, I was pretty convinced that he was right - until I read his script. But the underlying conflict in the story is absolutely brilliant, and that is all his, and it works just as well without drug runners. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-the-star-trek-franchise-relit/485995/92 "2009-02-18T10:53:55Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > Except Star Wars isn’t a utopia. Just based on the films, I think it’s questionable whether the average standard of living even approaches present day America. The films show us the royalty of the Republic/Empire, who unsurprisingly live like royalty; but we also see that others are barely scraping by. Sure, everyone seems to be able to afford a droid; but tellingly, that hasn’t led to the abolition of slavery. It just means that there’s another caste treated even worse than slaves. Correct, Star Wars is not a utopia, it’s just another badly thought out interstellar empire run by a medieval aristocracy, hence essentially retarded governmentally. I should have avoided that phrasing. The main thing about Star Wars and Star Trek is that they both portray societies that are much wealthier than ours. Probably not everybody in either society is doing well, but I’m betting even poor dirt farmer’s like Luke’s adoptive father could afford droids and beat up old land speeders that could levitate. On the home world they have huge cities with constant streams of aicraft probably most of them intersellar, flying everywhere, bespeaking enormous commerce. The slavery in Star Wars could be on the periphery of the empire, you know, places where a guy like Jabba the Hutt could operate with impunity. > [@](#): > > Yes, dystopias are generally cheaper to film, but that’s only because the audience expects a certain quality of spectacle from their science fiction. Sure, utopias where everybody walks around in white robes and smiles a lot because they don’t have to work but they have more bling than they know what to do with and they can travel whenever and wherever they like are cheap to film, but are dramatically dull. Generally the only reason they’re shown is so outside forces can blow them up good. Fact remains, the wealthy interstellar trade empires of Star Wars and Star Trek are the “franchises” in the SF world, and both are convincingly portrayed as being much wealthier than our society. While they aren’t utopias, they both are probably excellent societies to live in for the majority of their inhabitants. There ain’t no Blade Runner, Robocop or Mad Max franchise, baby. > [@](#): > > As for Roger Corman and his no-budget dystopias, I would hazard a guess that his career has earned him even less money than Gene Roddenberry. (Hell, I bet Roddenberry’s still making more money than Corman, despite being dead for 18 years). I mention Corman because he’s the leader in the field. Fact remains, dystopias are very cheap and easy to film, compared to uber-wealthy societies. Nobody wants to watch the white-robes-smiley-magic-box utopias because they’re dull visually as well as dramatically. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 11:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-the-star-trek-franchise-relit/485995/93 "2009-02-18T11:04:04Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Trek is only set a couple hundred years in the future. I’d say that genetic manipulation wasn’t widespread…the “supermen” like Khan mostly destroyed themselves in war. And in DS9-era Trek, genetically manipulated humans were feared and generally in hiding or in the closet about their genetic makeup (see Julian Bashir). My point was that no one is required to stick to the historic canon on the small points where it conflicts with explaining the big picture. If modern day humans can’t exist in a perfect society, then it’s perfectly easy to say that future humans aren’t the same. ---
**Author:** ![Kamino\_Neko](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kamino_neko/32/34_2.png) [@Kamino\_Neko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kamino_Neko)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-the-star-trek-franchise-relit/485995/94 "2009-02-18T11:34:39Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > The slavery in Star Wars could be on the periphery of the empire In the EU, it’s explicitly stated that is slavery de facto AOK in the Empire proper, despite being nominally illegal. They have actually reclassified sapient beings, like the Wookiees, as non-sapient, in order to get around Republic-era laws against it without looking bad by repealing them. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-the-star-trek-franchise-relit/485995/95 "2009-02-18T12:32:37Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Sure, utopias where everybody walks around in white robes and smiles a lot because they don’t have to work but they have more bling than they know what to do with and they can travel whenever and wherever they like are cheap to film, but are dramatically dull. Generally the only reason they’re shown is so outside forces can blow them up good. Miranda in the film Serenity is a pretty good take on this, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-the-star-trek-franchise-relit/485995/96 "2009-02-18T20:37:56Z")
> [@Sage\_Rat](#): > > My point was that no one is required to stick to the historic canon on the small points where it conflicts with explaining the big picture. If modern day humans can’t exist in a perfect society, then it’s perfectly easy to say that future humans aren’t the same. Actually I think they could, with the right tech. Look at open source software, and piracy. Yes I know piracy is lawless but people go to great lengths, and sometimes personal expense to make sure just to help people get things for free. Look at the efforts of charities to make sure people are fed. Now imagine those efforts coupled with a post scarcity world where everything is free from a replicator. Put a different way imagine Sweden with replicators. ---
**Author:** ![Terrifel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c68b51/32.png) [@Terrifel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terrifel)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-the-star-trek-franchise-relit/485995/97 "2009-02-18T20:48:21Z")
I envision a society of buxom space valkyries with the ability to replicate unlimited quantities of excellent mead and all the exotic paraphernalia necessary to fulfill their every physical desire. All this takes place in zero gravity. ---
**Author:** ![BMalion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@BMalion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BMalion)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-the-star-trek-franchise-relit/485995/98 "2009-02-18T20:55:59Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > I envision a society of buxom space valkyries with the ability to replicate unlimited quantities of excellent mead and all the exotic paraphernalia necessary to fulfill their every physical desire. All this takes place in zero gravity. At my place. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-the-star-trek-franchise-relit/485995/99 "2009-02-19T03:08:15Z")
> [@Terrifel](#): > > I envision a society of buxom space valkyries with the ability to replicate unlimited quantities of excellent mead and all the exotic paraphernalia necessary to fulfill their every physical desire. All this takes place in zero gravity. This would be an acceptable alternative to my idea. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2009, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-the-star-trek-franchise-relit/485995/100 "2009-02-19T04:35:35Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Miranda in the film Serenity is a pretty good take on this, don’t you think? If it’s the peaceful place where the ship lands and then another ship lands and they fight like hell and things go boom, I think … then yes. Been awhile since I watched the movie. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-the-star-trek-franchise-relit/485995.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-the-star-trek-franchise-relit/485995.md?page=6)