# Getting your aunt to write your master's thesis for you: Ethical? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 18, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-your-aunt-to-write-your-masters-thesis-for-you-ethical/331677 "2005-11-18T18:44:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-your-aunt-to-write-your-masters-thesis-for-you-ethical/331677/41 "2005-11-19T16:59:29Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Who writes Hawkings’ articles? Good point. His aunt? ---
**Author:** ![jsmith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df705f/32.png) [@jsmith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jsmith)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-your-aunt-to-write-your-masters-thesis-for-you-ethical/331677/42 "2005-11-19T18:05:04Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Who writes Hawkings’ articles? From what I understand he is not mentally challenged, just physically. He is able to form coherent and intelligent sentences and paragraphs. He can type up most of his papers and lectures on his computer attached to his wheelchair. I went to a lecture by him once, very smart and clever. This is a little different than what the OP is suggesting, in my opinion. Some of his books have him listed as the single author, others have co-authors. So, I guess that isn’t helpful. I think having your Aunt put the paper together is unethical. At the very least use an undergraduate or someone who doesn’t have experience in the field write the paper. That way, the student is responsible for the content. Also, the student should acknowledge he/she had help. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-your-aunt-to-write-your-masters-thesis-for-you-ethical/331677/43 "2005-11-19T18:25:30Z")
While I can sympathize with an organic problem resulting in an inability to progress in a chosen field, this is a no brainer. I’m quite sure that I could be a fantastic pro football player, but I never got to be taller than 5’7", thus limiting my potential. It’s not my fault that I’m short, but it does make it impossible for me to do the job of pro football player. If the person in question has a physical impairment that makes doing the job possible (and writing the thesis is supposed to be the proof that you are capable of doing the subsequent job) then this is unethical. Unless, as others pointed out, we are simply talking about dictating. Absolutely no problem with dictation, per the Hawking example. You want proof? Tell the thesis committee of the plan, and exactly what the aunt’s role will be. If they have no problem with it, then it’s fine. If it is being hidden from them, then I think that the people involved already know the answer to the ethics question. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-your-aunt-to-write-your-masters-thesis-for-you-ethical/331677/44 "2005-11-19T18:39:10Z")
Look, there’s a very simple way to determine if this person’s thesis committee considers this situation to be unethical. Ask them. Bring together the graduate student, his/her aunt, the professors on the graduate student’s thesis committee, and a doctor who’s treated the student and can testify to his/her aphasia. Then explain to the committee precisely what the student’s medical condition is. Explain to them precisely what the aunt will be doing in helping him with the thesis. And I do mean precisely. Don’t just say that she will be giving the student some help without any specifics on what the help is. Tell the committee exactly what she will be doing. Get an agreement from the committee about precisely what the aunt can do. And then get this all in writing. If this is all agreed to in writing beforehand, there’s no way that the thesis committee can complain that they didn’t know what was going on. On the other hand, if someone doesn’t want to tell the committee some of the facts, they’re concealing something and will probably get into trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-your-aunt-to-write-your-masters-thesis-for-you-ethical/331677/45 "2005-11-19T18:41:40Z")
Fiveyearlurker writes: \> Tell the thesis committee of the plan, and exactly what the aunt’s role will be. I guess great minds think alike. Well, actually, it’s more a matter of my post and Fiveyearlurker’s post being simul-posts. In any case, this is what needs to be done. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-your-aunt-to-write-your-masters-thesis-for-you-ethical/331677/46 "2005-11-19T19:49:34Z")
> [@elfbabe](#): > > The ethics of the situation would be a lot simpler if it were someone other than the aunt helping with the typing part - I mean, this kind of thing is what psych 101 students are _for_! Exactly. The person with aphasia should get a psych undergrad to help her out - someone in psych, so they know the terminology already, and an undergrad, so that that person clearly isn’t the one writing the Master’s thesis. Then the ideas, if they’re really Master’s-level ideas, are coming from the aphasiac (if that’s the right word), and the helper is clearly helping with lesser functions. But as plenty of others have said, having someone who’s got a doctorate in a related field being the helper gives too much room for too much help to be given. ---
**Author:** ![spingears](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ebca7d/32.png) [@spingears](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spingears)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-your-aunt-to-write-your-masters-thesis-for-you-ethical/331677/47 "2005-11-19T20:51:54Z")
The granting of a Master’s degree will boil down, in the end, to what the university, thesis committee, and the advisor will allow. You should take it up with them to obtain a valid evaluation. You have received all kinds of opinions from anything goes to No Deal it won’t pass muster. If she cannot dictate and record to a word processor and then edit that she still is lacking the qualifications. IMHO PS the original OP was not all that clear as to how mild is mild, a theoretical subject who is in reality, your aunt’s niece, (your daughter? :rolleyes: ) or what? > [@tdn](#): > > Yes, this happened to people I know. So what was the final result? Granted or denied? ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2005, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-your-aunt-to-write-your-masters-thesis-for-you-ethical/331677/48 "2005-11-19T23:23:10Z")
One of the major parts of the problem, as I see it, is that the aunt is an expert in the approximate field of the thesis, and thus may be assumed by the marking committee to be editing it, even if she is being entirely above board in everything she does. Would it be a problem if the Masters student simply hired a typist, or got their other aunt, who doesn’t hold qualifications in psychology to type it, something like that? Seems like it could simplify things immensely. I agree with others that this all needs to be above board. The student needs to go to the Disability Liaison people at the uni, and get expert advice. I’m sure similar situations come up all the time. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-your-aunt-to-write-your-masters-thesis-for-you-ethical/331677/49 "2005-11-20T00:05:00Z")
Typing - 100% fine. Editing- likely OK. Helping with ideas… nope. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-your-aunt-to-write-your-masters-thesis-for-you-ethical/331677/50 "2005-11-20T02:29:56Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > How would someone who was ignorant of psych write a psych thesis? > > The aunt has a phd in psych, and the neice is getting a masters - it’s obvious that the aunt knows a bit about the topic. Now, if the aunt is acting as an editor - spelling, grammer, style, etc, no problem. However, if the aunt is saying you need to do more experiments here, or you forgot about Roger’s theory of Unconditional Positive Regard and you’re going to have to include that - here just let me add it in for you, I think that’s crossing the line, big time. Unless things have changed since I was in grad school, theses don’t have co-authors. I assume the aunt got acknowledged. An advisor usually does enough suggestions for a dissertation to get a co-author credit if it were a paper (and papers from a dissertaion would have the advisor as a co-author). Maybe they should have put the aunt on her committee. It is not true in my field, but I have heard that in some the professor is always the first author, by the way. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-your-aunt-to-write-your-masters-thesis-for-you-ethical/331677/51 "2005-11-20T16:53:18Z")
> [@spingears](#): > > PS the original OP was not all that clear as to how mild is mild, a theoretical subject who is in reality, your aunt’s niece, (your daughter? :rolleyes: ) or what? > > So what was the final result? Granted or denied? I explained the mild aphasia as best as I know. She has problems dealing with written words, but not verbal. (According to the aunt. My own experience of the niece is that sometimes she has trouble getting words out. She is very excitable and seems to trip over her own words.) It’s pretty clear to me that the ideas are her own, and the research is her own, but she has trouble not only typing the words, but organizing them into a format that is acceptable for a thesis. The aunt helps out her grad students in the same way all the time, and the university doesn’t seem to have a problem with it. It seems to be the way they do things as a matter of course. But then the niece doesn’t go to that particular university, so the rules might be different. BTW, the aunt recently helped her own sister get her doctoral thesis done last year. The sister was entirely incapable of doing it on her own. I sometimes suspect that the aunt is being taken advantage of by her own family. What’s sad is that this hasn’t changed since their childhood. The aunt was made to help her older sister graduate high school because the sister was too dumb and/or socially busy to do it herself. Some family dynamics don’t change. I have no idea what the outcome was, but I can try to find out tonight. The aunt, BTW, is my girlfriend. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-your-aunt-to-write-your-masters-thesis-for-you-ethical/331677/52 "2005-11-20T17:13:45Z")
Slight hijack, but I want to explain the subject of a thesis the aunt advised on with one of her students. This may help to explain her typical role. It’s also such a cool experiment that I just had to share. The student wanted to measure something in test subjects. The test was designed by the aunt and the grad student, plus a number of other (undergrad?) students. It was truly a group effort, with the aunt contributing a great deal, but I understand it was the student’s baby. A group of volunteers was assembled, and made to fill out a questionairre. Things like “What’s your favorite food”, “Did you get along with your siblings”, “Do you like the sound of balloons popping”, etc. Then the volunteers were separated into two groups, group A and group B. Each member of group A had an unseen and anonymous counterpart in group B. An isolated member of group A was given 4 vessels of liquids. The liquids were something like grape juice, ginger ale, water, and a really foul-smelling and potentially poisonous liquid. The volunteer was asked to choose one liquid for his or her counterpart from group B to drink, and the group B person would have to drink it. The group B person was presented with the same thing, except he would know what liquid the group A person had chosen for him. Before drinking, he would choose a liquid for the group A person to drink. In other words, “The group A person told you to drink the grape juice. What liquid do you want him to drink?” Here’s what the group B people didn’t know: There was no group A. In every instance, the liquid was chosen by the experimenters. And in every instance, it was the foul liquid. The experiment was to test whether the subjects would retaliate by choosing the foul liquid for their imaginary group A counterparts, and if there was any correlation to whether the subject showed symptoms of PTSD. In other words, does PTSD lead to a retalitory state of mind. I thought it was quite a clever experiment. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-your-aunt-to-write-your-masters-thesis-for-you-ethical/331677/53 "2005-11-20T17:57:44Z")
I don’t know about a master’s degree, but I know that part of the requirement for my doctorate program is to be able to write in a publishable form. You may have great ideas, but part of the highest level of scholarship is HOW you write. I appreciate the difficulties you face with aphasia (I have a master’s in special ed), but having a published scholar actually write your ideas as they would write it presents your work at a different level than you could do on your own. I would comprimise - have her advise you on your writing style but have someone else copy your ideas verbatim. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-your-aunt-to-write-your-masters-thesis-for-you-ethical/331677/54 "2005-11-20T18:13:32Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I explained the mild aphasia as best as I know. She has problems dealing with written words, but not verbal. (According to the aunt. My own experience of the niece is that sometimes she has trouble getting words out. She is very excitable and seems to trip over her own words.) It’s pretty clear to me that the ideas are her own, and the research is her own, but she has trouble not only typing the words, but organizing them into a format that is acceptable for a thesis. > > The aunt helps out her grad students in the same way all the time, and the university doesn’t seem to have a problem with it. It seems to be the way they do things as a matter of course. But then the niece doesn’t go to that particular university, so the rules might be different. > > BTW, the aunt recently helped her own sister get her doctoral thesis done last year. The sister was entirely incapable of doing it on her own. I sometimes suspect that the aunt is being taken advantage of by her own family. What’s sad is that this hasn’t changed since their childhood. The aunt was made to help her older sister graduate high school because the sister was too dumb and/or socially busy to do it herself. Some family dynamics don’t change. > > I have no idea what the outcome was, but I can try to find out tonight. > > The aunt, BTW, is my girlfriend. You might want to share some of this thread with you girlfriend. That, and a book on ethics. I don’t mean that to be harsh, only that it sounds like she hasn’t taken a step back and taken the time to consider things. I apologize if that assumption is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-your-aunt-to-write-your-masters-thesis-for-you-ethical/331677/55 "2005-11-20T18:33:26Z")
> [@alice\_in\_wonderland](#): > > If you can’t get your shit together enough to actually put an idea on paper, I don’t think you deserve a masters degree. You’re right on. Even if you have a handicap. Sometimes in life you just have to accept that you can’t do something and move on. If I had my legs amputated I’d simply accept that I couldn’t compete as a marathon runner. There might be other events I could do with that condition, but I couldn’t run. I wouldn’t have my aunt carry me on her back and try to get credit for it as though I ran myself. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2005, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-your-aunt-to-write-your-masters-thesis-for-you-ethical/331677/56 "2005-11-20T21:45:38Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > I thought it was quite a clever experiment. Isn’t this just sort of a variation of the very famous Milgram experiment? > **[Milgram experiment](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment)** > > The Milgram experiment(s) on obedience to authority figures was a series of social psychology experiments conducted by Yale University psychologist Stanley Milgram. They measured the willingness of study participants, men 20-50 years old from a diverse range of occupations with varying levels of education, to obey an authority figure who instructed them to perform acts conflicting with their personal conscience. Participants were led to believe that they were assisting an unrelated experiment, ... ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-your-aunt-to-write-your-masters-thesis-for-you-ethical/331677/57 "2005-11-21T14:10:08Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > Isn’t this just sort of a variation of the very famous Milgram experiment? I think it’s pretty similar. Except Milgram was testing people in general, and this student was testing PTSD people. An retaliation. ---
**Author:** ![Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harriet_the_Spry)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-your-aunt-to-write-your-masters-thesis-for-you-ethical/331677/58 "2005-11-21T14:44:56Z")
Most universities these days are very accustomed to dealing with students with all types of disabilities, including learning disabilities, because they are required by law to provide reasonable accommodations. The fact that these folks (who are in psychology/ social sciences, even) are not linked in to this process is a big red flag to me. Here’s an example from a university here in NC about the types of disability services provided to students. [http://www.ncsu.edu/provost/offices/affirm\_action/dss/](http://www.ncsu.edu/provost/offices/affirm_action/dss/) The ethical approach would involve the university’s disability officer and probably the thesis committee, as mentioned. The student will benefit from this process in a number of ways. First, with a good diagnosis and probably access to assistive technology and lessons learned from other students with similar problems. Second, by avoiding the appearance of impropriety that could sink her thesis like a stone. ---
**Author:** ![phungi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/phungi/32/395_2.png) [@phungi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phungi)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-your-aunt-to-write-your-masters-thesis-for-you-ethical/331677/59 "2005-11-21T17:58:49Z")
I agree 100% that the Thesis Committee should be informed of the plan and the inclusion of “external readers” and to me it doesn’t matter if it is an aunt, parent, friend, or professor from another University. Thesis Committees are intended to be collegial and helpful up to the point of the thesis defense. If having the aunt assist with the structure or content of the thesis helps, and these suggestions are in agreement with the Chair and also blessed by the Chair, that’s super. If it helps the niece understand the process and better prepare her for future writings, uber-super! However, the members of the thesis committee should be performing this function. This leads me to the underlying question: Is the aunt helping the niece in order to prevent the thesis committee from knowing that the niece is unable to complete this on her own? If yes, then this is not moral or acceptable behavior. If no, then I don’t see the fuss. BTW, I am a psychology professor who has written a thesis and supervises Master’s level students. Also, if the aunt is willing to help my students clean up their intellectual slop before pawning it off on me, let me know! ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2005, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-your-aunt-to-write-your-masters-thesis-for-you-ethical/331677/60 "2005-11-21T18:41:21Z")
I also think it would help a lot for the appearance of impropriety, even if nothing improper is happening, if the person helping to get the ideas of the thesis on paper didn’t herself have a PhD in the field. There’s a bit too much temptation for the help to go from sentence structure to content. There’s no reason that I complete novice in the field can’t help get the words on paper, and said person would be unable to act improperly because they would likely have little understanding of what was being written. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-your-aunt-to-write-your-masters-thesis-for-you-ethical/331677.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/getting-your-aunt-to-write-your-masters-thesis-for-you-ethical/331677.md?page=4)