# Gfactor's presidential immunity column **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [October 3, 2008, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gfactors-presidential-immunity-column/466318 "2008-10-03T14:16:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![friedo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/8edcca/32.png) [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gfactors-presidential-immunity-column/466318/1 "2008-10-03T14:16:48Z")
[Linky](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2809/can-the-president-grant-immunity-from-prosecution). Great column, as always, but there’s loads of broken non-link URLs in the middle of the text. To wit: > [@](#): > > [noparse] > In 1831, President Andrew Jackson was faced with this very issue. Two years earlier, a man known as Constant Polari or Carrara broke into the palace of Laken [http://www.trabel.com/brussel/brusse...lresidence.htm](http://www.trabel.com/brussel/brusse...lresidence.htm) and stole, among other things, royal jewels belonging to the Prince and Princess of Orange. After some intrigue straight out of National Treasure (some of the items taken were hidden in a compartment in a writing desk), Polari was arrested by U.S. customs agents [http://books.google.com/books?id=fQA...22DQ#PPA281,M1](http://books.google.com/books?id=fQA...22DQ#PPA281,M1). Some of the jewels were retrieved, and the President wanted to return them to the Netherlands. Unfortunately, the district attorney was pursuing a legal forfeiture claim against the jewels and was not inclined to stop. Jackson asked then-attorney general Roger Taney if he could make the DA back off. Taney’s opinion, titled The Jewels of the Princess of Orange [http://books.google.com/books?id=G98...hl=en#PPA38,M1](http://books.google.com/books?id=G98...hl=en#PPA38,M1) said he could, sort of. The President has the power to direct the district attorney to stop, but “the District Attorney might refuse to obey the President’s order; and if he did refuse, the prosecution, while he remained in office, would still go on; because the President himself could give no order to the court or to the clerk to make any particular entry. He could only act through his subordinate officer, the dstrict attorney, who is responsible to him and who holds his office at his pleasure. And if that officer still continues a prosecution which the President is satisfied ought not to continue, the removal of the disobedient officer and the substitution of one more worthy in his place would enable the President through him faithfully to execute the law.” > [/noparse] It’s a tad difficult to read. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gfactors-presidential-immunity-column/466318/2 "2008-10-03T14:24:08Z")
Sorry for the formatting stuff. I’m sure it will be fixed pretty soon. In the meantime, here are the links from the quoted paragraph, at least. > **[Trabel.com domain name is for sale. Inquire now.](https://www.trabel.com/)** > > Trabel.com is available for purchase. Get in touch to discuss the possibilities! > **[Pleasantries about Courts and Lawyers of the State of New York](https://books.google.com/books?id=fQA9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA216&dq=jewels%2Bprincess%2Bof%2Borange&ei=5U7uR6-KGpesiwGVu522DQ&hl=en)** > **[Selected Cases on Government and Administration](https://books.google.com/books?id=G989AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA38&lpg=PA38&dq=The%2BJewels%2Bof%2Bthe%2BPrincess%2Bof%2BOrange&source=web&ots=CcNLiawVYF&sig=h4OIOYRg5DRAKvVVD1KYlwBVrxE&hl=en#PPA38,M1)** ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gfactors-presidential-immunity-column/466318/3 "2008-10-03T16:30:37Z")
Nicely done, as always, **Gfactor**. Other than fixing the links, I’d suggest in the paragraph beginning “It’s clear that the pardon power…” that you either refer to “the President,” or add the particular president’s name after his title. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gfactors-presidential-immunity-column/466318/4 "2008-10-03T16:38:45Z")
Also… I remember once reading a long law review article which cited a case in which a prisoner was given a pardon - maybe a commutation? - with post-release conditions (I believe by President Taft), but wished to decline it. The prisoner would rather have just done his time and been released with no strings attached. The court found, however, that you cannot turn down a pardon, even one with conditions you consider onerous. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gfactors-presidential-immunity-column/466318/5 "2008-10-03T16:42:39Z")
I think that case has been cited in some of the threads on _Burdick_. IIRC it involves amnesty or commutation and not a pardon. I’ll see what I can find when I get a chance. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gfactors-presidential-immunity-column/466318/6 "2008-10-03T16:56:42Z")
I think you’re talking about this: > [@](#): > > In 1927, however, in sustaining the right of the President to commute a sentence of death to one of life imprisonment, against the will of the prisoner, the Court abandoned this view. ‘‘A pardon in our days,’’ it said, ‘‘is not a private act of grace from an individual happening to possess power. It is a part of the constitutional scheme. When granted it is the determination of the ultimate authority that the public welfare will be better served by inflicting less than what the judgment fixed.’’ Whether these words sound the death knell of the acceptance doctrine is perhaps doubtful. They seem clearly to indicate that by substituting a commutation order for a deed of pardon, a President can always have his way in such matters, provided the substituted penalty is authorized by law and does not in common understanding exceed the original penalty. [http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/pdf2002/012.pdf](http://www.gpoaccess.gov/constitution/pdf2002/012.pdf) The case is: Biddle v. Perovich, 274 U.S. 480, 486 (1927): [http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=274&invol=480](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=274&invol=480) I talked about some issues with the acceptance dictum in \*Burdick \*here: [post]9704476[/post] ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gfactors-presidential-immunity-column/466318/7 "2008-10-03T17:16:06Z")
Hmmm. That case does mention Taft, but… I don’t really think that’s the one I had in mind. If I’m remembering it right, the prisoner was to be released but had to obtain gainful employment, not pick up any new offenses, pay restitution, etc., and he didn’t wanna do that. The _Biddle_ case is about commuting a death sentence to life imprisonment (not likely to be objected to by most prisoners, I suspect!). ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2008, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gfactors-presidential-immunity-column/466318/8 "2008-10-03T17:49:27Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Hmmm. That case does mention Taft, but… I don’t really think that’s the one I had in mind. If I’m remembering it right, the prisoner was to be released but had to obtain gainful employment, not pick up any new offenses, pay restitution, etc., and he didn’t wanna do that. The _Biddle_ case is about commuting a death sentence to life imprisonment (not likely to be objected to by most prisoners, I suspect!). It sounds familiar, but I haven’t been able to locate anything so far. In any case, it was certainly not a pardon case–and \*Perovich \* began a line of cases that limited the acceptance doctrine (to he extent there really is one) to full-on pardons. And conditions in pardons and commutations have been approved by the Court: See, _Shick v. Reed_, 419 U.S. 256 (1974): [http://laws.lp.findlaw.com/getcase/US/419/256.html](http://laws.lp.findlaw.com/getcase/US/419/256.html) (summarizing the history of conditional pardons and commutations). ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gfactors-presidential-immunity-column/466318/9 "2008-10-07T19:57:23Z")
I have read and heard that Sec Rice, granted immunity to Blackwater and other companies operating in Iraq. Immunity from prosecution from the US and from Iraqi authorties. Does she have any authority to do so? ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gfactors-presidential-immunity-column/466318/10 "2008-10-07T20:11:14Z")
> [@](#): > > The New York Times said officials in the State Department’s investigative unit, the Bureau of Diplomatic Security, made the immunity offer though they lacked authority to do so. [http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jxpNwZiwx\_q\_gHXPkucs08EVX4YA](http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jxpNwZiwx_q_gHXPkucs08EVX4YA) > [@](#): > > One of the senior State Department officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of a lack of authorization to speak on the matter, said the department’s Diplomatic Security branch does not have the right or ability to offer blanket immunity and did not do anything that would inhibit prosecutors if charges are to be pursued. > **[Officials: Blackwater guards offered limited immunity - CNN.com](https://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/10/30/blackwater.immunity/index.html)** > > No blanket immunity deal was offered to Blackwater guards for their statements regarding a shootout in Iraq last month that left 17 Iraqi civilians dead, two senior State Department officials told CNN Tuesday. > [@](#): > > “If anyone gave such immunity it was done so without consulting senior leadership at State,” a senior State Department official initially told ABC News. [Exclusive: ABC News Obtains Text of Blackwater Immunity Deal - ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Story?id=3795318&page=1) [http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/30/washington/30blackwater.html](http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/30/washington/30blackwater.html) ---
**Author:** ![infinitii](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e8c25b/32.png) [@infinitii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/infinitii)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gfactors-presidential-immunity-column/466318/11 "2008-10-07T22:42:47Z")
I don’t mean to hijack this thread, but is there any more on this incident with Constant Polari? I found a couple other things from 19th century books on Google Books, but literally nothing else on the Internet. It sounds like an interesting story and I was curious to know more. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gfactors-presidential-immunity-column/466318/12 "2008-10-07T22:48:39Z")
IIRC, I included the only linkable stuff I found in the article. But let me dig around through my notes. I’ll do that and report back. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gfactors-presidential-immunity-column/466318/13 "2008-10-07T23:19:54Z")
Other stuff on The Jewels of the Princess of Orange: > **[Annual Register](https://books.google.com/books?id=GAKrjq9xh2oC&pg=RA1-PA47&lpg=RA1-PA47&dq=jewels%2Bof%2Bthe%2Bprincess%2Bof%2Borange&source=web&ots=c_bvefumYy&sig=KXWfT6bD2-7SHdff4ju_LnY0vtI&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=8&ct=result#PRA1-PA45,M1)** [Reminiscences of James A. Hamilton: Or, Men and Events, at Home and Abroad ... - James Alexander Hamilton - Google Books](http://books.google.com/books?id=LXEsAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA222&dq=constant+polari&ei=iuzrSMmLMob-swP7xtiUBw&client=firefox-a#PPA223,M1) (this has some good detail and quotations from correspondence) [John Horsleydown, Or, The Confessions of a Thief - Thomas Littleton Holt - Google Books](http://books.google.com/books?id=P64BAAAAQAAJ&pg=PA287&dq=constant+polari&ei=iuzrSMmLMob-swP7xtiUBw&client=firefox-a#PPA274,M1) (only skimmed this, but it looks pretty good) These and the ones in the piece have the best detail. ---
**Author:** ![macslut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@macslut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/macslut)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gfactors-presidential-immunity-column/466318/14 "2008-10-10T18:30:26Z")
OK, so if ever I was in a “24” situation, and was the bad guy with info, would the best course of action be to ask the president for immunity as well as all of the governors of each state? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gfactors-presidential-immunity-column/466318/15 "2008-10-10T18:33:16Z")
Sure. Good luck getting all fifty of them (or however many would be affected by your nefarious scheme) to agree within the span of a day. ---
**Author:** ![SeanArenas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeanArenas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeanArenas)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gfactors-presidential-immunity-column/466318/16 "2008-10-10T18:42:55Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Sure. Good luck getting all fifty of them (or however many would be affected by your nefarious scheme) to agree within the span of a day. In “24” they get answers in minutes. Remember, each episode is one hour of the day, and they’re usually getting a signature minutes after the demand is made. ---
**Author:** ![macslut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@macslut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/macslut)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gfactors-presidential-immunity-column/466318/17 "2008-10-10T19:07:35Z")
My question was about the legal aspect, not so much about writing a believable script for the show. So, pretend you did have information about certain, but not imminent doom, and you had time to get the attention, signatures, etc… would immunity from the president and the governors of all 50 states work? ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2008, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gfactors-presidential-immunity-column/466318/18 "2008-10-10T20:09:15Z")
Whether a gubernatorial grant of immunity would be effective is a question of state law in each state. For example, Michigan’s Governor recently claimed that she lacked authority to grant immunity to Kwame Kilpatrick so that he could testify in his removal case. [http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080812/NEWS01/80812070/0/news01](http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080812/NEWS01/80812070/0/news01) [http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080813/NEWS01/808130341/0/news01](http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080813/NEWS01/808130341/0/news01) It’s not clear to me that the results would be the same in every state, but you’d need to check in every state, and you the matter might never have been addressed, so to some extent you’d be guessing. I’d still suggest demanding pardons instead.