# Giant fossil cows -- did they exist? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 6, 2008, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giant-fossil-cows-did-they-exist/466672 "2008-10-06T14:23:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giant-fossil-cows-did-they-exist/466672/1 "2008-10-06T14:23:34Z")
So many modern mammals had larger versions that existed during the Pleistocene (I think I spelled that correctly) or earlier periods. Did any giant bovines exist? ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giant-fossil-cows-did-they-exist/466672/2 "2008-10-06T14:27:04Z")
Aurochs [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurochs](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurochs) ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giant-fossil-cows-did-they-exist/466672/3 "2008-10-06T15:03:33Z")
> [@chacoguy420](#): > > Aurochs > > [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurochs](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aurochs) I don’t think Aurochs count. Aurochs are effectively the same species as domestic cows or at least the same sub genius. Aurochs were the root stock that cows were domesticated from. If they were still around, they would be fertile with currents cows and projects to breed back to Aurochs appear to be fairly successful. They are additionally not prehistoric. I am not aware of any extinct cows that would normally be considered megafauna. Jim ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giant-fossil-cows-did-they-exist/466672/4 "2008-10-06T15:22:52Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > I don’t think Aurochs count. Aurochs are effectively the same species as domestic cows or at least the same sub genius. Aurochs were the root stock that cows were domesticated from. If they were still around, they would be fertile with currents cows and projects to breed back to Aurochs appear to be fairly successful. They are additionally not prehistoric. > > I am not aware of any extinct cows that would normally be considered megafauna. > > Jim Modern bovine cattle, i.e., _Bos bovis_, derived from crosses between various interfertile species of genus _Bos_, including the Aurochs but also others. (“Cattle” worldwide includes several other species of _Bos_, such as the yak (_Bos grunniens_) The aurochs, _Bos primigenius_, was a distinct species which survived in forest preserves in Poland and, IIRC, the Russian Caucusus, until the 17th Century, when a combination of wars, slaughter, and general disinterest finally sent them extinct. There were experiments during the 20th Century to “revive the aurochs” by selective breeding to replicate the characteristics of the then-extinct animals from selected breeds of domestic cattle. The aurochs was marginally larger and heavier than the typical domestic cow or bull, maybe on a par with Longhorns (which are a distinct bteed within _B. bovis_). They were not enormously larger, though. I do seem to recall reading a short reference to muych-larger-than-modern wild cattle as part of accounts of Pleistocene megafauna. But no cite to back this. ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giant-fossil-cows-did-they-exist/466672/5 "2008-10-06T16:30:30Z")
I am vaguely recalling seeing pictures (from “Prehistoric Creatures”-type books that I looked at way back in the 1970s) of extinct “Ice\_Age” bison whose horns were a lot longer than the modern species. I don’t know if the long-horned species was supposed to be any bigger or more massive than their modern counterparts, however! ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giant-fossil-cows-did-they-exist/466672/6 "2008-10-06T16:41:18Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > The aurochs, _Bos primigenius_, was a distinct species which survived in forest preserves in Poland and, IIRC, the Russian Caucusus, until the 17th Century, when a combination of wars, slaughter, and general disinterest finally sent them extinct. . I have no personal doubt that if _Bos primigenius_ was extant today that Zoologist’s would be debating whether or not it was a distinct species or a subspecies. They recently decided that the dog is a subspecies of wolf. The Aurochs would answer the OP’s question, however. Not every species had a giant ancestor. The domestic cat ancestor was likely 'cat-sized" for example. The dire wolf (likely not a direct ancestor of todays wolf) was only slightly larger than the modern wolf. No whale has ever been bigger than the Blue Whale. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giant-fossil-cows-did-they-exist/466672/7 "2008-10-06T17:26:51Z")
Generally, domesticated animals are put in the same species with their closest wild relative. I think that would put the Auroch in the same species as the domestic cow, if it were alive in the wild today. This is a convention since the BSC cannot really be applied to domesticated animals. It defines population that regularly interbreed to produce fertile offspring in the wild. As for the larger bison, there is _Bison antiquus_ which was a bit larger than the bison you see in N. America today-- about 20% larger, with horns about 1 meter in span. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giant-fossil-cows-did-they-exist/466672/8 "2008-10-06T17:31:32Z")
Ok, so what is [this](http://www.worth1000.com/emailthis.asp?entry=399419) a fossil of, then? ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giant-fossil-cows-did-they-exist/466672/9 "2008-10-06T18:19:38Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Generally, domesticated animals are put in the same species with their closest wild relative. I think that would put the Auroch in the same species as the domestic cow, if it were alive in the wild today. This is a convention since the BSC cannot really be applied to domesticated animals. It defines population that regularly interbreed to produce fertile offspring in the wild. > > As for the larger bison, there is _Bison antiquus_ which was a bit larger than the bison you see in N. America today-- about 20% larger, with horns about 1 meter in span. “Bison antiquus” is undoubtedly the image that I was recalling from the 1970s. Thanks for properly identifying the species (and confirming my often-faulty memory) for me! ---
**Author:** ![Rocketeer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocketeer/32/4437_2.png) [@Rocketeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocketeer)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giant-fossil-cows-did-they-exist/466672/10 "2008-10-06T18:23:30Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Ok, so what is [this](http://www.worth1000.com/emailthis.asp?entry=399419) a fossil of, then? _bovus Photoshopicus_. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giant-fossil-cows-did-they-exist/466672/11 "2008-10-06T19:14:43Z")
> [@gytalf2000](#): > > “Bison antiquus” is undoubtedly the image that I was recalling from the 1970s. Thanks for properly identifying the species (and confirming my often-faulty memory) for me! I remembered it from reading “Centenial” years ago. I think they died out as part of the mass megafauna extinction in NA about 12k years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Doubting\_Robert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e495f1/32.png) [@Doubting\_Robert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubting_Robert)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giant-fossil-cows-did-they-exist/466672/12 "2008-10-06T19:17:04Z")
What, no pictures of Babe, the Blue Ox? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giant-fossil-cows-did-they-exist/466672/13 "2008-10-06T19:30:27Z")
This is rough and without great cites: _Bison priscus_ migrated to NA around 3 Million years ago and developed into _Bison latifrons_. [http://www.paleocraft.com/paleobison.html](http://www.paleocraft.com/paleobison.html) \*It wasn’t until the Pleistocene epoch that their descendants made the journey from Asia to North America by migrating across the existing land bridge between Siberia and Alaska. Such species include the modern bison, Bison bison; the small bison, Bison antiquus; the Eurasian steppe bison, Bison priscus; and the large broad-horned bison, Bison latifrons. Bison latifrons was one of the first to make the journey out of Asia and was the largest of the known North American species of bison. They lived alongside other bison species until they went extinct some 25-30,000 years ago. Their fossils are scarce and are found only in late Pleistocene layers. A few fossils, including some toe bones and a broken horn core, have been retrieved from the infamous Rancho La Brea tar pits but are otherwise uncommon in that area. Bison latifrons was an immense animal, standing as much as 8 1/2 feet at the shoulder. They would have been very similar to modern bison in appearance, only larger, with their most distinct feature being a long set of curved horns that protruded outward from the skull and gently arced upwards. Their unique horn spreads are known to have spanned as much as 6 feet tip to tip and possibly longer. They would have been sexually distinguishable by their appearance. The males were larger and more robust, whereas the females were smaller and sported a more slender set of horns.\* Aroudn 20,000 years ago, \*Bison latifrons \*was replaced by _Bison antiquus_. \*B. antiquus \*is the direct ancestor of \*B. bison \*the modern American Bison, which replaced \*B. antiquus \*around 10,000 years ago. Bison antiquus was slightly larger than \*B.Bison \*with longer horns. [http://paleodb.org/cgi-bin/bridge.pl?action=checkTaxonInfo&taxon\_no=44508&is\_real\_user=0](http://paleodb.org/cgi-bin/bridge.pl?action=checkTaxonInfo&taxon_no=44508&is_real_user=0) ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giant-fossil-cows-did-they-exist/466672/14 "2008-10-06T21:33:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Bison latifrons was an immense animal, standing as much as 8 1/2 feet at the shoulder. They would have been very similar to modern bison in appearance, only larger, with their most distinct feature being a long set of curved horns that protruded outward from the skull and gently arced upwards. Their unique horn spreads are known to have spanned as much as 6 feet tip to tip and possibly longer. They would have been sexually distinguishable by their appearance. The males were larger and more robust, whereas the females were smaller and sported a more slender set of horns.\* IIRC, the largest examples of \*bison bison \*reach 8.5 feet at the shoulder, so latifrons wasn’t that big. ---
**Author:** ![gytalf2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ac91a4/32.png) [@gytalf2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gytalf2000)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giant-fossil-cows-did-they-exist/466672/15 "2008-10-06T21:54:04Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Ok, so what is [this](http://www.worth1000.com/emailthis.asp?entry=399419) a fossil of, then? Wow! A “Tyrannocowasaurus Tex”! Impressive! ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2008, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giant-fossil-cows-did-they-exist/466672/16 "2008-10-06T23:46:01Z")
> [@Doubting\_Robert](#): > > What, no pictures of Babe, the Blue Ox? Well, since you asked…[http://www.roadsideamerica.com/tip/18648](http://www.roadsideamerica.com/tip/18648) ---
**Author:** ![Gorsnak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gorsnak/32/7587_2.png) [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giant-fossil-cows-did-they-exist/466672/17 "2008-10-07T00:48:03Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > IIRC, the largest examples of \*bison bison \*reach 8.5 feet at the shoulder, so latifrons wasn’t that big. You got a cite for that? None of the _Bison bison_ I’ve ever seen were anywhere near that tall, and I’ve seen some that are amongst the largest breeding bulls around at well over 2000lbs. I don’t think I’ve seen any (even those with significant _Bison bison athabascae_ blood) that are even over 8’ at the peak of the hump, let alone at the shoulder. ---
**Author:** ![Angel\_of\_Doubt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/7cd45c/32.png) [@Angel\_of\_Doubt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Angel_of_Doubt)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giant-fossil-cows-did-they-exist/466672/18 "2008-10-07T03:39:25Z")
> [@Doubting\_Robert](#): > > What, no pictures of Babe, the Blue Ox? Oh, I thought you meant the REAL Blue Babe - [http://www.alaska.edu/opa/eInfo/index.xml?StoryID=180](http://www.alaska.edu/opa/eInfo/index.xml?StoryID=180) I saw her up close and personal - amazing (but admittedly not of the size we’re looking for)! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2008, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giant-fossil-cows-did-they-exist/466672/19 "2008-10-07T04:08:24Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#): > > You got a cite for that? None of the _Bison bison_ I’ve ever seen were anywhere near that tall, and I’ve seen some that are amongst the largest breeding bulls around at well over 2000lbs. I don’t think I’ve seen any (even those with significant _Bison bison athabascae_ blood) that are even over 8’ at the peak of the hump, let alone at the shoulder. Can’t find one. I’ve read (and Wiki confirms) that wisent can be 7.5 feet at the shoulder, and I thought the American bison was bigger.