# Giants-Bucs Ending Week #2 **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [September 17, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giants-bucs-ending-week-2/634997 "2012-09-17T19:37:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giants-bucs-ending-week-2/634997/1 "2012-09-17T19:37:04Z")
I amy be the only Giants fan who DIDN’T really have a problem with what the Tampa Bay Bucs did on the last play of the game. As I see it… 1. The Bucs were only down by one score. That makes a HUGE difference to me. If they had been trailing by 21, they should have just gone through the motions, gone to the locker room, and started getting ready for next week. But down by just ONE score, they had every right to keep playing hard. Their odds weren’t good, but there was certainly a SLIM chance that Gerald McCoy could have gotten through, knocked the ball loose, and given a teammate a chance to recover and even advance a fumble. 2. With 5 seconds on the clock, if they’d managed to get a turnover, there was at least SOME chance they could have gotten the ball back with a second left on the clock. That’s all it would take to give Josh Freeman a crack at a Hail Mary pass. 3. Even if the Giants initially assumed the Bucs would simply let time expire, by the time they got to the line of scrimmage, they SHOULD have seen that the Bucs were coming in force! They SHOULD have been ready for it. Hence, if someone on the Giants HAD gotten injured, I think it would have been their own fault for not paying attention. The game was NOT over, and the Bucs were just MOSTLY dead (to steal a line from Bily Crystal). They had every right to fight hard until time was gone. The Bucs did exactly what I’d HOPe the Giants would do if the roles were reversed. There’s no reason for the Giants or my fellow Giants fans to gripe. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giants-bucs-ending-week-2/634997/2 "2012-09-17T19:50:53Z")
I agree TOTALLY **astorian**! YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME, HELLO! ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giants-bucs-ending-week-2/634997/3 "2012-09-17T20:03:40Z")
Devil’s advocate… Okay the Giants do run a play while leading with time running out and it results in a touchdown. Are they open to criticizm of running up the score? I think not. If Tampa Bay wants to try to bust through a kneel down then they need to accept the possibility of a stinging add-on at the end. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giants-bucs-ending-week-2/634997/4 "2012-09-17T20:26:57Z")
**lieu** -Agreed. If Tampa doesn’t want to give up a “garbage” TD, TACKLE! ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giants-bucs-ending-week-2/634997/5 "2012-09-17T20:35:18Z")
100% wrong. Unlike on other plays, when the quaterback’s knee touches the ground the play is dead. There is no way the Bucs have a chance. The game was over. The only thing it proved was some Bush league point Schiano was trying to make to his team. Its something his team is not going to appreciate when they are getting knocked around all year during garbage time. And they will be. I _am_ a Giants fan. But I am also a Rutgers fan and a Schiano fan. Hell, I put $50 on the Bucs to win the Superbowl in Vegas preseason at 100-1. He proved himself to be a college coach with that play. Makes me wonder if he is going to run up scores too. > [@](#): > > Devil’s advocate… Okay the Giants do run a play while leading with time running out and it results in a touchdown. Are they open to criticizm of running up the score? They would be crucified if they did that. There were 9 seconds left. It just required a kneel down. If they ran a play there would not be one person in sports on their side today. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giants-bucs-ending-week-2/634997/6 "2012-09-17T20:43:39Z")
6 other games ended with 8 or fewer points separating the teams, and with the winning team taking a knee. None of those ended the way this one did. Even games like Washington - St. Louis with a 3 point lead, over a minute left, at midfield, where WA just missed a field goal, they didn’t do this shit. I’ll also point out that Schiano didn’t do this at the end of the first half, when Eli took a knee. Is he not playing to win the game then? It’s OK to leave 7 points on the field during the first half, instead of trying your best? The whole point is to catch the offense by surprise. It’s not “trying hard” and “playing until the end of the game”. It’s “I hope they don’t realize I’m actually going to smash into them until it’s too late”. That is bush league strategy. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giants-bucs-ending-week-2/634997/7 "2012-09-17T20:46:27Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > 100% wrong. Unlike on other plays, when the quaterback’s knee touches the ground the play is dead. There is no way the Bucs have a chance. The game was over. The only thing it proved was some Bush league point Schiano was trying to make to his team. Its something his team is not going to appreciate when they are getting knocked around all year during garbage time. And they will be. > > I _am_ a Giants fan. But I am also a Rutgers fan and a Schiano fan. Hell, I put $50 on the Bucs to win the Superbowl in Vegas preseason at 100-1. He proved himself to be a college coach with that play. Makes me wonder if he is going to run up scores too. Yeah, but the point is, they hit Manning \*before \*he kneeled down…at that point, he’s still fair game. If someone had managed to get a hand on the ball, or if Manning just wasn’t holding it securely, they might have caused a fumble, and then who knows what would happen. The only reason the Giants and their fans are upset is because the Bucs didn’t ‘follow the script’; instead they actually _played_ the final play. there was absolutely nothing wrong with what they did and there was nothing ‘dirty’ about it. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giants-bucs-ending-week-2/634997/8 "2012-09-17T21:04:46Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > Yeah, but the point is, they hit Manning \*before \*he kneeled down…at that point, he’s still fair game. If someone had managed to get a hand on the ball, or if Manning just wasn’t holding it securely, they might have caused a fumble, and then who knows what would happen. > > The only reason the Giants and their fans are upset is because the Bucs didn’t ‘follow the script’; instead they actually _played_ the final play. there was absolutely nothing wrong with what they did and there was nothing ‘dirty’ about it. Actually they never touched him. He was knocked back by his own defensive line. In public the Bucs are supporting Schiano. But not that strongly. They are professionals too. They don’t want to paint a target on their backs. “We do what we’re coached,” Buccaneers defensive tackle Gerald McCoy said. “I’ll leave it at that.” ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giants-bucs-ending-week-2/634997/9 "2012-09-17T21:08:25Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > 6 other games ended with 8 or fewer points separating the teams, and with the winning team taking a knee. None of those ended the way this one did. Even games like Washington - St. Louis with a 3 point lead, over a minute left, at midfield, where WA just missed a field goal, they didn’t do this shit. > > I’ll also point out that Schiano didn’t do this at the end of the first half, when Eli took a knee. Is he not playing to win the game then? It’s OK to leave 7 points on the field during the first half, instead of trying your best? > > The whole point is to catch the offense by surprise. It’s not “trying hard” and “playing until the end of the game”. It’s “I hope they don’t realize I’m actually going to smash into them until it’s too late”. That is bush league strategy. All excellent points. Its just not done. And its not done for a reason. But Tampa Bay better get used to the idea that they will get smashed in garbage time for the next 14 weeks. I’m sure they’ll appreciate the coach for that. And I’m sure he’ll find out soon that he is not dealing with college kids any more. ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giants-bucs-ending-week-2/634997/10 "2012-09-17T21:15:06Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > They would be crucified if they did that. There were 9 seconds left. It just required a kneel down. If they ran a play there would not be one person in sports on their side today. The Giants tried that once. Herm Edwards, for doing absolutely nothing wrong, became a hated name. Csonka and Pisarcik - Csonka didn’t want the ball, but Pisarcik didn’t want to piss off the coach calling the play, and the center was trying to avoid a delay of game penalty. Colossal fuck-up. It was bush league. Just because it was a legitimate play doesn’t make it the right thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giants-bucs-ending-week-2/634997/11 "2012-09-17T21:18:43Z")
> [@D\_Odds](#): > > The Giants tried that once. Herm Edwards, for doing absolutely nothing wrong, became a hated name. Csonka and Pisarcik - Csonka didn’t want the ball, but Pisarcik didn’t want to piss off the coach calling the play, and the center was trying to avoid a delay of game penalty. Colossal fuck-up. Snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory. Thats the Giants of the 70s. https://www.youtube.com/embed/ML1Ixd3jiGU?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giants-bucs-ending-week-2/634997/12 "2012-09-17T21:24:56Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > They would be crucified if they did that. There were 9 seconds left. It just required a kneel down. If they ran a play there would not be one person in sports on their side today. I think anyone that cries about someone running up the score is a crybaby. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giants-bucs-ending-week-2/634997/13 "2012-09-17T21:25:40Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > In public the Bucs are supporting Schiano. But not that strongly. They are professionals too. They don’t want to paint a target on their backs. > > “We do what we’re coached,” Buccaneers defensive tackle Gerald McCoy said. “I’ll leave it at that.” Exactly. " “Whatever the coach asks us to do, that’s our job. It’s like someone asks you write a story about something you don’t want to write about, you still do it. That’s what coach believes in. That’s how we play the game.”" Michael Bennett. Those are the guys who will be paying the price for Schiano’s dickishness, not Schiano. He’s not the guy out there having players diving at his knees, crackback blocking, or getting his balls squeezed in a pileup. And both McCoy and Bennett felt the need to express that it wasn’t their idea, it was their coaches. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giants-bucs-ending-week-2/634997/14 "2012-09-17T21:51:25Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > I think anyone that cries about someone running up the score is a crybaby. Its not baseball where its possible to overcome a 30 run lead with 2 outs in the 9th. There is a point in many football games when it is simply unwinnable. For the leading team it is petty, unprofessional and insulting. It means nothing in the standings. There is no need to run up the score. Its different it college football when a tight score against a seemingly unworthy opponent can hurt your ranking. There is no need for it. ---
**Author:** ![etv78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d78d45/32.png) [@etv78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/etv78)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giants-bucs-ending-week-2/634997/15 "2012-09-17T21:56:15Z")
If you don’t want to be scored on… **tackle people**! ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giants-bucs-ending-week-2/634997/16 "2012-09-17T22:02:10Z")
> [@etv78](#): > > If you don’t want to be scored on… **tackle people**! This is not Pop Warner. There are professional athletes who don’t have guaranteed contracts. They play all out despite knowing their career could end on any play. What is the benefit to anyone for someone to get hurt on a play that means nothing except to prop up the coaches ego? ---
**Author:** ![magnusblitz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@magnusblitz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magnusblitz)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giants-bucs-ending-week-2/634997/17 "2012-09-17T22:05:01Z")
> [@lieu](#): > > Devil’s advocate… Okay the Giants do run a play while leading with time running out and it results in a touchdown. Are they open to criticizm of running up the score? > > I think not. If Tampa Bay wants to try to bust through a kneel down then they need to accept the possibility of a stinging add-on at the end. Something similar actually happened in the USC-UCLA game in 2009. UCLA was behind 21-7 and turned the ball over on downs with under a minute left. USC kneels to run the clock down, UCLA tries to crash the line and calls a timeout (and I believe they didn’t have three timeouts, so it’s not as if they could force a punt - they were solely doint it to try and mess up the snap). Next play, instead of kneeling again, Matt Barkley throws a 48 yard TD pass to a wide-open receiver. I think Neuheisel (the UCLA coach at the time) deserved it. ---
**Author:** ![Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de053/32.png) [@Jackknifed\_Juggernaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackknifed_Juggernaut)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giants-bucs-ending-week-2/634997/18 "2012-09-17T22:22:26Z")
The point is that there is a precedent already set between players in these situations. It would have also been perfectly legal for a Giants OL to take out the knee of Gerald McCoy. But because of the understanding, he didn’t do it. It was pure bush league. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giants-bucs-ending-week-2/634997/19 "2012-09-17T22:56:24Z")
> [@Loach](#): > > Its not baseball where its possible to overcome a 30 run lead with 2 outs in the 9th. There is a point in many football games when it is simply unwinnable. For the leading team it is petty, unprofessional and insulting. It means nothing in the standings. There is no need to run up the score. Its different it college football when a tight score against a seemingly unworthy opponent can hurt your ranking. There is no need for it. Yes, but it is football, where it is possible to score 7 points on the last play of the game. Which is what Tampa Bay was trying to do. There is indeed a point at which a football game becomes unwinnable, but this game had not passed that point. If they had been down by 10 points, I’d be in complete agreement that it was wrong. But I fail to see the problem with attempting to win the game. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2012, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giants-bucs-ending-week-2/634997/20 "2012-09-17T23:05:44Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > Yes, but it is football, where it is possible to score 7 points on the last play of the game. Which is what Tampa Bay was trying to do. There is indeed a point at which a football game becomes unwinnable, but this game had not passed that point. Find me a game where a fumble on the victory formation leads to the defense picking it up and running it back for a touchdown, because that is the only way it could possibly happen. You know how many times that has happened in the history of NFL football. None. Not once. Ever. Why do you suppose that every other NFL coach refuses to call that kind of play? Are we, once again, back to Greg Schiano discovering a “possibility” that no other coach had discovered prior and that, even though it was the only time in his career it could possibly be a surprise, it still didn’t work? Yes, it is theoretically possible, but having your players dive at the knees of the offensive line and putting a huge target on them for the rest of their career in Tampa Bay doesn’t outweigh chasing that theoretical possibility that has never, ever happened before. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giants-bucs-ending-week-2/634997.md?page=2)