# Gibraltar, the UK and Spain **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 3, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373 "2013-12-03T14:50:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/1 "2013-12-03T14:50:50Z")
> **[Status of Gibraltar](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disputed_status_of_Gibraltar)** > > Gibraltar, a British Overseas Territory, located at the southern tip of the Iberian Peninsula, is the subject of a territorial claim by Spain. It was captured in 1704 during the War of the Spanish Succession (1701–1714). The Spanish Crown formally ceded the territory in perpetuity to the British Crown in 1713, under Article X of the Treaty of Utrecht. Spain later attempted to recapture the territory during the thirteenth siege (1727) and the Great Siege (1779–1783). British sovereignty over Gi... > **[Gibraltar row: Q & A](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/10223614/Gibraltar-row-Q-and-A.html)** > > David Cameron has stepped in the controversy over Gibraltar, expressing his "serious concerns" over Spain's conduct. But what lies behind the dispute? > **[David Cameron: Gibraltar diplomatic bag incident was an 'extremely serious...](https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/gibraltar/10478182/David-Cameron-Gibraltar-diplomatic-bag-incident-was-an-extremely-serious-action.html)** > > David Cameron talks of British anger at the latest "serious action" by the Spanish government over Gibraltar but claims the UK has been told it will not happen again What should British policy be? What should Spanish policy be? I doubt it’ll ever become a shooting war, but this kind of dispute doesn’t always end well. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/2 "2013-12-03T15:02:48Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > What should British policy be? What should Spanish policy be? **I doubt it’ll ever become a shooting wa** r, but this kind of dispute doesn’t always end well. (bolding mine): Spoilsport! As it is, the British have sort of accepted the policy of giving up imperial possessions, but Gibraltar still has a major strategic value. I think some sort of eventual joint sovereignty or permanent UK base with Spanish rule will come into being, but with the increasing importance of the Far East, I do not see Albion giving up control of Gibraltar until the UK is no longer a major power. As it is, the British will probably have conquered Spain by then, b[y the simple expidient of migrating in large number](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_migration_to_Spain).😃 ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/3 "2013-12-03T15:06:50Z")
I’d like to note, for the record, that Gibraltar has been British longer than it was Spanish. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 3:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/4 "2013-12-03T15:12:35Z")
Spain could put together an Armada, and with modern weather forecasting technology things might turn out differently this time! Seriously, though, what is so terribly wrong with the status quo? ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/5 "2013-12-03T15:42:01Z")
Spaniard here- What should Britain do? Protect the rights of the citizens of one of their territories, of course. What should Spain do? Understand that the democratic will of the people of Gibraltar surpasses big time any random treaty from two centuries ago. Incredibly obvious, right? However there’s this whole culture war going on in Spain between right and left, and the centre and the provinces, the citizens of Gibraltar are the unwitting innocent bystanders of. The recovery of Gibraltar’s rock has been for some reason a sort of symbolic issue for the right-leaning political parties in Spain since forever, and the current administration seems to have decided to use them again as a distraction to get attention off from things like the growing unemployment rates and the attempts at secession. Sad and pathetic, to me at least, but that’s this country in a nutshell. ---
**Author:** ![Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cc9497/32.png) [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt.Ridley_s_Shooting_Party)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/6 "2013-12-03T15:42:36Z")
> [@Elendil's Heir](#): > > What should British policy be? We should invite the Catalonians and Basques to open an embassy in London. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/7 "2013-12-03T16:06:55Z")
What if Gibraltar was granted its independence? It would then be a small nation on Spain’s border (like Andorra) rather than an outpost of another major power. Would this satisfy Spain’s unhappiness with the situation? An independent Gibraltar would be free to negotiate a treaty with the United Kingdom in which Britain agrees to assist Gibraltar financially in exchange for military basing rights. It would essentially be the same situation as exists now except it would be a bilateral agreement between two sovereign nations. ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/8 "2013-12-03T16:29:47Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > What if Gibraltar was granted its independence? It would then be a small nation on Spain’s border (like Andorra) rather than an outpost of another major power. Would this satisfy Spain’s unhappiness with the situation? > > An independent Gibraltar would be free to negotiate a treaty with the United Kingdom in which Britain agrees to assist Gibraltar financially in exchange for military basing rights. It would essentially be the same situation as exists now except it would be a bilateral agreement between two sovereign nations. I don’t know that the people in Gibraltar would want to abandon their citizenship to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/9 "2013-12-03T16:33:26Z")
The feeling that the British should give Gibraltar back runs deep and long. Jules Verne certainly thought they should. He was French, of course, and not directly involved, but it bothered his sense of what was right. He satirized the British tenacious hold on Gibraltar in two works, _Hector Servadac_ (“Off on a Comet”) and the short story _Gil Braltar_ . ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/10 "2013-12-03T16:36:29Z")
Why would anyone care what Verve thought about this? ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/11 "2013-12-03T16:42:40Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Why would anyone care what Verve thought about this? Plus at the time he lived, of all the rich pickings he had, he chose to be pissed off about _Gibraltar_ ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/12 "2013-12-03T16:46:07Z")
> [@Capt.Ridley\_s\_Shooting\_Party](#): > > We should invite the Catalonians and Basques to open an embassy in London. The Catalonians already opened one in London and one in Edimburgh (among other locations); the Basques have had more sense, or perhaps less leeches in need of a government salary. I agree with **Sr Siete** ’s analysis, with two addendums: The mere amount of Spanish “black money”, much of it owned by politicians, using Gibraltar as a tax haven, means there wouldn’t be any kind of military attack on the position even if the Rock didn’t have the military power of the United Kingdom behind it. What should all three parties do? Stop acting like 3yos in a sandbox. Andorra, Luxembourgh, Monaco or San Marino don’t feel the need to insult their bigger neighbors, the bigger neighbors don’t feel the need to growl at the smaller one, let’s all try to show some civilization for once, ok? > [@Alessan](#): > > I’d like to note, for the record, that Gibraltar has been British longer than it was Spanish. Depends on your definitions. Either it had never been Spanish, it had been Spanish since the 1260s, or it had been Spanish since before the hairless monkeys reached the Peninsula. I’d like to know which definition you’re using, because by none of mine has it been British longer than Spanish. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/13 "2013-12-03T16:46:32Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Why would anyone care what Verve thought about this? Yeah. I’m not expert, but it seems to me that the most important opinion would be that of the people currently living in Gibraltar. ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/14 "2013-12-03T16:57:36Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > The Catalonians already opened one in London and one in Edimburgh (among other locations); the Basques have had more sense, or perhaps less leeches in need of a government salary. Nah, we Catalans just have this thing for grandstanding. Like children calling for constant attention. Basques are way more straight in that. > [@Nava](#): > > What should all three parties do? Stop acting like 3yos in a sandbox. Andorra, Luxembourgh, Monaco or San Marino don’t feel the need to insult their bigger neighbors, the bigger neighbors don’t feel the need to growl at the smaller one, let’s all try to show some civilization for once, ok? I’m sorry, but how did exactly Gibraltar insult anybody? They put some cement piles along their coast? That’s the big deal to you? Also, they are technically still part of the British Empire, not an independent state. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/15 "2013-12-03T16:59:25Z")
Maño you’re quoting the wrong part. Ah, now you’ve corrected it. The bit about the concrete blocks isn’t an insult, but the whole attitude about and behind it, is. Other neighbors collaborate, why not Gibraltar and us? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/16 "2013-12-03T17:00:24Z")
Same as the Falklands, let the people who live there decide. Much like the Falklands there seems to be very few that wish to separate from the UK. > [@](#): > > Depends on your definitions. Either it had never been Spanish, it had been Spanish since the 1260s, or it had been Spanish since before the hairless monkeys reached the Peninsula. I’d like to know which definition you’re using, because by none of mine has it been British longer than Spanish. I’d call it Spanish from 1516-1704, and English/British from 1704-Present day. ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/17 "2013-12-03T17:10:04Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Maño you’re quoting the wrong part. > > Ah, now you’ve corrected it. The bit about the concrete blocks isn’t an insult, but the whole attitude about and behind it, is. Other neighbors collaborate, why not Gibraltar and us? What attitude? The fact that they got pissed off when we started slowing the pace of traffic to a crawling halt using that fishing nonsense as a cheap excuse? I honestly want to know, because I watch the news about it and I still don’t see anything other than a big, steaming pile of crap from our side. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/18 "2013-12-03T18:24:22Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > …they are technically still part of the British Empire, not an independent state. No, they’re a British Overseas Territory. The British Empire, as such, doesn’t exist anymore. > **[British Empire](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_empire#End_of_empire)** > > The British Empire comprised the dominions, colonies, protectorates, mandates, and other territories ruled or administered by the United Kingdom and its predecessor states. It began with the overseas possessions and trading posts established by England in the late 16th and early 17th centuries. At its height in the 19th and early 20th centuries, it became the largest empire in history and, for a century, was the foremost global power. By 1913, the British Empire held sway over 412 million peo... > **[British Overseas Territories](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Overseas_Territories)** > > The British Overseas Territories (BOTs) or alternatively referred to as the United Kingdom Overseas Territories (UKOTs) are the fourteen territories with a constitutional and historical link with the United Kingdom that, while not forming part of the United Kingdom itself, are part of its sovereign territory. The permanently inhabited territories are delegated varying degrees of internal self-governance, with the United Kingdom retaining responsibility for defence, foreign relatio Most of the... ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/19 "2013-12-03T18:37:35Z")
When Spain gives Ceuta and Melilla back to Morocco, then they can talk to Britain about Gibraltar. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/20 "2013-12-03T19:09:52Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > No, they’re a British Overseas Territory. The British Empire, as such, doesn’t exist anymore. > > [British Empire - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_empire#End_of_empire) > [British Overseas Territories - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Overseas_Territories) Yes, you’re right. Thanks for the correction. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373.md?page=2)