# Gibraltar, the UK and Spain **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 3, 2013, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373 "2013-12-03T14:50:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/21 "2013-12-03T19:27:43Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > The recovery of Gibraltar’s rock has been for some reason a sort of symbolic issue for the right-leaning political parties in Spain since forever, and the current administration seems to have decided to use them again as a distraction… Interesting. How do such people feel about the [territories](http://geography.about.com/od/spainmaps/a/The-Spanish-Enclaves-Of-North-Africa.htm) of Ceuta and Melilla? ETA: Ninja’d with my question by ElvisLives. Left this window open too long. ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/22 "2013-12-03T19:35:14Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > Interesting. How do such people feel about the [territories](http://geography.about.com/od/spainmaps/a/The-Spanish-Enclaves-Of-North-Africa.htm) of Ceuta and Melilla? > > ETA: Ninja’d with my question by ElvisLives. Left this window open too long. You will not be surprised to know that the same people who decries the loss of Gibraltar will easily come with several debatable reasons why those are not the same case. But that’s true of every political issue everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2013, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/23 "2013-12-03T20:53:54Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > Depends on your definitions. Either it had never been Spanish, it had been Spanish since the 1260s, or it had been Spanish since before the hairless monkeys reached the Peninsula. I’d like to know which definition you’re using, because by none of mine has it been British longer than Spanish. I counted from its conquest by Castille in 1462. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/24 "2013-12-04T01:48:35Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > You will not be surprised to know that the same people who decries the loss of Gibraltar will easily come with several debatable reasons why those are not the same case. And I’d be one of them. Without going too far off-topic, read **Tom’s** own cite. Point being, Ceuta & Melilla have been **part of Spain itself** since the 16th Century, long before Morocco became a nation – never mind an independent one. * * * In any event, why not settle it the same way proposed in the Malvinas/Falklands thread and this one? Let the people who live there decide. I have a pretty good idea what results of a referendum would look like… ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/25 "2013-12-04T01:56:42Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > And I’d be one of them. One who, as **Sr Siete** puts it, “decries the loss of Gibraltar”? I’m just curious what the purported logic is that could be applied to one instance but not the other, and how it constitutes a clear, bright line. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/26 "2013-12-04T02:40:57Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > One who, as **Sr Siete** puts it, “decries the loss of Gibraltar”? I’m just curious what the purported logic is that could be applied to one instance but not the other, and how it constitutes a clear, bright line. Actually, no. I glanced at the second part of his sentence and used it – badly, on second reading – to segue into my post. Truth is, I don’t have much truck with Gibraltar’s current status and I agree it is being used as misdirection by the PP. Patriotism often crosses ideology thus it’s not hard to see why they are doing what they are doing at this time…pretty clumsy really. That said, I was actually responding to you and **Tom** vis-a-vis the difference between Ceuta & Melilla vs Gibraltar. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/27 "2013-12-04T03:01:10Z")
For those who, like me, had never heard of Ceuta and Melilla before: > **[Ceuta](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceuta)** > > Ceuta (UK: /ˈsjuːtə/, US: /ˈseɪuːtə/, Spanish: \[ˈsewta\]; Arabic: سَبْتَة, romanized: Sabtah) is a Spanish autonomous city on the north coast of Africa. > Bordered by Morocco, it lies along the boundary between the Mediterranean Sea and the Atlantic Ocean. It is one of several Spanish territories in Africa and, along with Melilla and the Canary Islands, one of only a few that are permanently inhabited by a civilian population. It was a regular municipality belonging to the province of Cádiz prior... > **[Melilla](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melilla)** > > Melilla (US: /məˈliːjə/ mə-LEE-yə, UK: /mɛˈ-/ meh-; Spanish: \[meˈliʎa\]; Tarifit: Mřič \[mrɪtʃ\]; Arabic: مليلية \[maˈliːlja\]) is an autonomous city of Spain in North Africa. It lies on the eastern side of the Cape Three Forks, bordering Morocco and facing the Mediterranean Sea. It has an area of 12.3 km2 (4.7 sq mi). It was part of the Province of Málaga until 14 March 1995, when the Statute of Autonomy of Melilla was passed. > Melilla is one of the special member state territories of the European ... ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 3:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/28 "2013-12-04T03:20:18Z")
> [@Sr\_Siete](#): > > I don’t know that the people in Gibraltar would want to abandon their citizenship to begin with. That’s an issue. But I was more curious how the Spanish would see the idea. Do they object to Gibraltar not being part of Spain or just to Gibraltar being part of the United Kingdom? ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/29 "2013-12-04T04:41:06Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > That’s an issue. But I was more curious how the Spanish would see the idea. Do they object to Gibraltar not being part of Spain or just to Gibraltar being part of the United Kingdom? Not responding for anyone else but obviously the train of thought is the former and not the latter. Put it this way, I doubt there’s anyway in hell that the UK would allow a Spanish Gibraltar, say like just at the edge of Dover…treaties or no treaties. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/30 "2013-12-04T05:16:55Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > For those who, like me, had never heard of Ceuta and Melilla before: > > [Ceuta - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceuta) > [Melilla - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melilla) And for additional background, there’s the link in my post! ;)🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/31 "2013-12-04T05:31:58Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > Not responding for anyone else but obviously the train of thought is the former and not the latter. Put it this way, I doubt there’s anyway in hell that the UK would allow a Spanish Gibraltar, say like just at the edge of Dover…treaties or no treaties. I’m not sure I’m following your point here. Your second line seems to contradict your first. There are a number of small independent nations in Europe - Andorra, Monaco, San Marino, the Vatican City, Liechtenstein - and the neighbouring larger countries seem generally okay with them. What seems to be contentious is when a country has an enclave of another large power - West Berlin, Heligoland, Kaliningrad, Trieste, Calais - on its border. ---
**Author:** ![Sr\_Siete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6de8d8/32.png) [@Sr\_Siete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sr_Siete)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/32 "2013-12-04T05:53:27Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > I’m not sure I’m following your point here. Your second line seems to contradict your first. > > There are a number of small independent nations in Europe - Andorra, Monaco, San Marino, the Vatican City, Liechtenstein - and the neighbouring larger countries seem generally okay with them. What seems to be contentious is when a country has an enclave of another large power - West Berlin, Heligoland, Kaliningrad, Trieste, Calais - on its border. Still, the whole issue is largely symbolic and a question of national pride. Whether the UK has military outposts there is irrelevant because a) We are both NATO and serving the same master anyway. and b) We are not at war, nor would we last a week if we ever entered in a war with Liechtenstein, let alone the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/33 "2013-12-04T15:17:07Z")
Liechtenstein: Europe’s Go-To Laughable Hypothetical Foe. ---
**Author:** ![Malden\_Capell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malden_capell/32/5274_2.png) [@Malden\_Capell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malden_Capell)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/34 "2013-12-04T16:43:21Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Liechtenstein: Europe’s Go-To Laughable Hypothetical Foe. Nah, that’s Italy. _ducks_ ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/35 "2013-12-04T16:46:33Z")
> [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](#): > > Liechtenstein: Europe’s Go-To Laughable Hypothetical Foe. And the Liechtenstein First Assault Brigade quietly adds **Elendil’s Heir** to The List and goes back to sharpening their knives… ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/36 "2013-12-04T18:25:56Z")
Just curious - why does Spain make a periodic fuss about border crossings there? Either there is no border, or it’s an intra-EU one, so why not just be cool about it, everyone? ---
**Author:** ![Antonius\_Block](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/51bf81/32.png) [@Antonius\_Block](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antonius_Block)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/37 "2013-12-04T22:49:55Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > Either there is no border, or it’s an intra-EU one, so why not just be cool about it, everyone? Gibraltar is indeed part of the EU, but it is not part of the [Schengen Area](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schengen_Area), although [some believe that Spain would not object to Gibraltar joining Schengen](http://www.panorama.gi/localnews/headlines.php?action=view_article&article=478). So, there are border checks between Spain and Gibraltar for the same reason that there are passport checks between France (Schengen) and the UK (non-Schengen). . ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/38 "2013-12-04T23:04:51Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > What if Gibraltar was granted its independence?.. IIRC the UK _can’t_ simply grant Gibraltar it’s independence without first offering the territory to Spain under the terms of the Treaty of Utrecht. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/39 "2013-12-05T05:06:55Z")
> [@Zakalwe](#): > > And the Liechtenstein First Assault Brigade quietly adds **Elendil’s Heir** to The List and goes back to sharpening their knives… And I chuckle and think, “_Liechtenstein_. That’s cute.” ---
**Author:** ![Mk\_VII](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Mk\_VII](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mk_VII)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2013, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373/40 "2013-12-10T20:34:04Z")
It’s one of those longstanding things that occasionally bubbles up to the surface again, as it did several times under Franco’s dictatorship. It’ll subside again, eventually. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gibraltar-the-uk-and-spain/675373.md?page=3)