# Gillian Welch fans: she bought a guitar...and a messageboard kerfuffle ensues **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 3, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gillian-welch-fans-she-bought-a-guitar-and-a-messageboard-kerfuffle-ensues/675400 "2013-12-03T20:15:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gillian-welch-fans-she-bought-a-guitar-and-a-messageboard-kerfuffle-ensues/675400/21 "2013-12-04T14:55:10Z")
Welch is an excellent guitarist in her own right. She isn’t flashy, especially standing next to Rawlings, but she plays rhythm with precision and finesse that you don’t see very often. Anyone who thinks it’s easy should try it, and when he thinks he’s doing it he’s still probably not doing it. It’s also exactly the kind of playing that brings out the subtleties in a guitar. Considering that their signature sound is just the two of them–to the point that I’m always a little disappointed when they bring out guests, even if it is John Paul Jones on mandolin–every facet of it matters. I loved the story about how fussy they were trying out the guitar in the guy’s shop. The individual differences they’re listening for probably wouldn’t be apparent to the average untrained audience member, but the sum total of the things they care about certainly does. Put the two of them together in a good room and beyond their obvious talent and excellent songs it’s clear that they just sound fucking great. I think it’s awesome that a guitar like this is in the hands of someone who is going to play it out on the road. It could have ended up in some rich amateur’s living room, or worse yet locked in a vault. Also, I’m friends with a whole bunch of backwoods bluegrass and old time musicians, and the idea that cheap instruments give you some kind of credibility in that world is…counterfactual, to say the least. I know people who live in shacks that barely have running water but have five digits’ worth of Martins and Mastertones sitting around. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gillian-welch-fans-she-bought-a-guitar-and-a-messageboard-kerfuffle-ensues/675400/22 "2013-12-04T16:15:32Z")
Slightly tangential, but if you haven’t seen Crooked Still’s cover of Welch’s “Orphan Girl”, it’s pretty cool. [![]( " - YouTube") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7qR-WFocPM) ---
**Author:** ![GrandWino](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/grandwino/32/67_2.png) [@GrandWino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrandWino)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gillian-welch-fans-she-bought-a-guitar-and-a-messageboard-kerfuffle-ensues/675400/23 "2013-12-04T16:18:49Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Willie Nelson plays a guitar with a freaking hole in it. Whatever works for the musicians is fine by me- at least unless they subject the audience to Nigel Tufnel-style ‘if it were playing, you’d hear the sustain’ blather. You put your weed in there… ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gillian-welch-fans-she-bought-a-guitar-and-a-messageboard-kerfuffle-ensues/675400/24 "2013-12-04T16:43:08Z")
> [@DoctorJ](#): > > Also, I’m friends with a whole bunch of backwoods bluegrass and old time musicians, and the idea that cheap instruments give you some kind of credibility in that world is…counterfactual, to say the least. I know people who live in shacks that barely have running water but have five digits’ worth of Martins and Mastertones sitting around. This is quite true. ---
**Author:** ![scabpicker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scabpicker/32/8268_2.png) [@scabpicker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scabpicker)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gillian-welch-fans-she-bought-a-guitar-and-a-messageboard-kerfuffle-ensues/675400/25 "2013-12-04T16:51:32Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > All true - and **scabpicker** , I am putting your Guitar Geek card on hold 😉 It’s a fair cop. 🙂 If the instrument is worth over $500, I’m out of my league. (Though, I have one guitar that’s appreciated beyond that through the miracle of time!) > [@DoctorJ](#): > > I think it’s awesome that a guitar like this is in the hands of someone who is going to play it out on the road. It could have ended up in some rich amateur’s living room, or worse yet locked in a vault. > > Also, I’m friends with a whole bunch of backwoods bluegrass and old time musicians, and the idea that cheap instruments give you some kind of credibility in that world is…counterfactual, to say the least. I know people who live in shacks that barely have running water but have five digits’ worth of Martins and Mastertones sitting around. True, and True. Even I drool over the nice instruments and nice sounds they make, but I don’t touch them much. If anyone plays the cheap instruments by choice, it’s because either: they just like the feel of that one, or that particular instrument makes funky sounds that the expensive ones don’t do so well, or because it’s almost cost-free to tinker with them. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gillian-welch-fans-she-bought-a-guitar-and-a-messageboard-kerfuffle-ensues/675400/26 "2013-12-04T18:13:35Z")
Man, that gives me some idea of the fiscal value of Janis Ian’s 1937 D-18 (quite aside from it’s immeasurable personal value). She [wrote about it in _Performing Songwriter_ magazine](http://www.janisian.com/reading/ofguitars.php). From the article: > [@](#): > > We survived being called a has-been a few hitless years later, and we’d written “Jesse” two years after that. Through the dark times, one of us, at least, had remained universally admired. Vinnie Bell, legendary New York studio musician, had offered me $5,000 for it - in 1966! Artists like Jimi Hendrix would greet me and say “How’s The Guitar doing, man? What a sweetheart!” It was an extraordinary instrument, a 1937 D-18 that somehow, through a combination of wood, break-in, temperature, humidity, and just plain love, wound up being the best acoustic guitar any of them had ever heard. Reverend Gary Davis would beg it at folk festivals; other artists kept offering me money. Why? It had the best bass tone I’d ever heard on a guitar, bar none. And unusual in a guitar from that era, it sounded as good picked as strummed, flat-picked as frailed. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gillian-welch-fans-she-bought-a-guitar-and-a-messageboard-kerfuffle-ensues/675400/27 "2013-12-04T19:52:54Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > Man, that gives me some idea of the fiscal value of Janis Ian’s 1937 D-18 (quite aside from it’s immeasurable personal value). She [wrote about it in _Performing Songwriter_ magazine](http://www.janisian.com/reading/ofguitars.php). From the article: > > > [@](#): > > > > We survived being called a has-been a few hitless years later, and we’d written “Jesse” two years after that. Through the dark times, one of us, at least, had remained universally admired. Vinnie Bell, legendary New York studio musician, had offered me $5,000 for it - in 1966! Artists like Jimi Hendrix would greet me and say “How’s The Guitar doing, man? What a sweetheart!” It was an extraordinary instrument, a 1937 D-18 that somehow, through a combination of wood, break-in, temperature, humidity, and just plain love, wound up being the best acoustic guitar any of them had ever heard. Reverend Gary Davis would beg it at folk festivals; other artists kept offering me money. Why? It had the best bass tone I’d ever heard on a guitar, bar none. And unusual in a guitar from that era, it sounded as good picked as strummed, flat-picked as frailed. Interesting - I hadn’t heard about that one; Reverend Gary Davis and his love of J-200’s; Joan Baez and her 1920’s 0-45; Dylan and a few guitars, but most famously a modified old Gibson Nick Lucas model, but not Janis’. Very cool. I’ve played a few 1937 D-18’s - some were simply wonderful. When Martin started their Authentic series a few years ago - built to old specs, using hide glue, etc. - one of the first was a 1937 D-18A(uthentic). They are very, very well-regarded in acoustic guitar circles - generally thought of as vintage guitars waiting for age and wear to do its work. For a larger-bodied guitar, I tend to prefer the mahogany of a D-18 over the rosewood of a D-28 or higher-numbered Martin. If you play with a heavier strum/attack - and I do - the combination of the rosewood (which tends to have extra Ring/harmonic overtones to the note vs. mahogany) and the larger body can lead to too much clashiness. In the case of Gillian Welch and her new/vintage D-45, she plays with a standard strum - not too heavy. I have a 1948 D-18 that suits me perfectly. I have yet to find a Martin-type dreadnought that suits me better… ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gillian-welch-fans-she-bought-a-guitar-and-a-messageboard-kerfuffle-ensues/675400/28 "2013-12-04T20:12:30Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > Man, that gives me some idea of the fiscal value of Janis Ian’s 1937 D-18 Oh, and by the way, a 1937 D-18 that is in solid shape - no neck or refin issues; minor cracks and no “structural” playwear (I’m look at Willie Nelson here) would probably go for $30-$40,000 - with no celebrity association. If it was under-the-bed original, some collector who hankers for a “closet queen” would likely need to pay a lot more…same with some celebrity associations… A 1937 D-28 would likely go for $120,000 or more - not only are you dealing with Brazilian Rosewood in the D-28, but Martin typically made 3 or more D-18’s for every D-28 each year - the 18’s were lower-priced and therefore more affordable. And I don’t think they had made D-45’s that early, but if they did it would be a $400-$500,000 guitar…top o’ the world, ma! ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2013, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gillian-welch-fans-she-bought-a-guitar-and-a-messageboard-kerfuffle-ensues/675400/29 "2013-12-04T22:16:44Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > She makes a particular style of music, but she’s not making any claims about her income as far as I know. She saw a guitar she wanted and paid for it. What’s the problem? It’s not like that’s the most money anybody ever paid for a guitar, either. > > Since she’s a professional musician, I’m going to guess she can. I’m not any kind of pro and even I know guitars don’t all sound the same. I don’t know if the audience in general will know the difference, but she will and she’s the artist. Why shouldn’t she spend her own money to make her music the way she wants to make it? That’s what got her this far. Well, that was kind of my point. On stage, run through the sound system and everything, the audience probably can’t tell. But when she’s playing it without amplification, she probably can tell. And even if she can’t, maybe the way the instrument feels to her inspires her creativity. Who knows? As I said, I’m glad a real musician is making music with that guitar. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gillian-welch-fans-she-bought-a-guitar-and-a-messageboard-kerfuffle-ensues/675400/30 "2013-12-05T00:34:01Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Well, that was kind of my point. On stage, run through the sound system and everything, the audience probably can’t tell. But when she’s playing it without amplification, she probably can tell. And even if she can’t, maybe the way the instrument feels to her inspires her creativity. Who knows? As I said, I’m glad a real musician is making music with that guitar. We’re agreed about all the other parts here. I might be missing some context here: maybe the audience wouldn’t be able to tell the difference between this exact guitar and a good replica, but between this one and the guitars she’s used in the past? I can believe this one might stand out. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gillian-welch-fans-she-bought-a-guitar-and-a-messageboard-kerfuffle-ensues/675400/31 "2013-12-05T01:58:08Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > Interesting - I hadn’t heard about that one; Reverend Gary Davis and his love of J-200’s; Joan Baez and her 1920’s 0-45; Dylan and a few guitars, but most famously a modified old Gibson Nick Lucas model, but not Janis’. Very cool. When you get a chance, read the link. I’d be shocked if you don’t wind up with tears in your eyes at the story. My friend Reverend Peyton [plays a reproduction Gibson Nick Lucas](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7dTh7aQr1I) that he bought off the wall of a restaurant ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gillian-welch-fans-she-bought-a-guitar-and-a-messageboard-kerfuffle-ensues/675400/32 "2013-12-05T13:43:35Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > When you get a chance, read the link. I’d be shocked if you don’t wind up with tears in your eyes at the story. > > My friend Reverend Peyton [plays a reproduction Gibson Nick Lucas](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7dTh7aQr1I) that he bought off the wall of a restaurant Great read - yeah, I know the guy she was contacted by, Eric Schoenberg - he’s a top vintage dealer in the Bay Area. Man, she was lucky. And wow, did that guitar go through a ton of stuff, from her misguided attempts to care for it, to the repaired top to getting stolen and going missing for decades. Wow. And yes, we’ve discussed Peyton’s guitar - that video clip still blows me away. That dude can play. His guitar is\* kind of \*a Nick replica - it has many of the right features (not that I can look inside and check the bracing; nor can I verify that it is extra deep - a key feature in a Nick’s construction vs. the other Gibson flattops of the day), but the fingerboard inlays aren’t correct (yes, that is a total geek nit; can’t help myself). The only thing that matters is that he sounds great playing it. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gillian-welch-fans-she-bought-a-guitar-and-a-messageboard-kerfuffle-ensues/675400/33 "2013-12-05T13:57:07Z")
Reverend Peyton, I know that guy. I met him while he was on tour with Hank III Small World **Capt** ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gillian-welch-fans-she-bought-a-guitar-and-a-messageboard-kerfuffle-ensues/675400/34 "2013-12-05T16:06:54Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Well, that was kind of my point. On stage, run through the sound system and everything, the audience probably can’t tell. But when she’s playing it without amplification, she probably can tell. And even if she can’t, maybe the way the instrument feels to her inspires her creativity. Who knows? As I said, I’m glad a real musician is making music with that guitar. By the way, this has been on my mind. A week or so ago, there was an IMHO thread about how Wine Tasting is crap! (we won’t get into that here). I posted, to make a point that different people bring VERY different POV’s to such subjective tests. I provided an example - those tests where listeners can’t pick the Stradivarius from the new violins. For an experienced player, Tone is huge, sure, but the responsiveness of the instrument is at least as important. A poster got back to me saying “the audience doesn’t care about responsiveness.” Argh and sigh. To be clear: for musicians, there can be HUGE difference between Performance Tools and Creation Tools. Do you think Jimmy Page whipped out his silly-ass (but kinda badass in his hands ;)) doubleneck when he was writing Stairway? Please. Billy Gibbons got his '59 Les Paul, Pearly Gates, and toured relentlessly with it. But as soon as he could, he swapped in a variety of subs - other LP’s, Tokai replicas. etc. But you can bet that when he is playing for himself, he goes back to PG. Also, some instruments are designed for Performance, e.g., the doubleneck JP needed to swap between 6 and 12 string easily, or Ovation guitars with their shallow backs designed to minimize feedback when playing in a loud venue. The music is in the player’s hands - once they learn an approach, they can bring it to most other instruments. But which instruments do they learn stuff on? When a musician is playing for themselves - writing, noodling, exploring - the responsiveness of an instrument is paramount. When I am playing a truly “special” guitar - apparently like Janis Ian’s D-18 😉 - my technique improves because it sounds _so much better_ when I clean up my bends and chord shapes; and I find myself going to new places musically - I guess as part of “testing the limits” of this great tool I am using. I have found myself starting to play jazzy chords on one specific guitar simply because it could handle those complex harmonies and sound so great - and I am jazz-clueless as a player. Now, however, I find myself playing those chords on other guitars - _because I opened the door on that guitar._ Once you walk through, the playing is in your hands. So - I bet Gillian gets a ton out of that D-45 as a Creating instrument; it’s also pretty for Performance, but I bet she loved how it responded and meshed with Rawlings’ Epiphone Olympic… I feel better. ---
**Author:** ![Finagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b19c9b/32.png) [@Finagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Finagle)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2013, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gillian-welch-fans-she-bought-a-guitar-and-a-messageboard-kerfuffle-ensues/675400/35 "2013-12-05T22:22:21Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > Man, that gives me some idea of the fiscal value of Janis Ian’s 1937 D-18 (quite aside from it’s immeasurable personal value). She [wrote about it in _Performing Songwriter_ magazine](http://www.janisian.com/reading/ofguitars.php). From the article: Touching story. But is there \* anyone \* in the music industry who has \* ever \* had an honest, competent accountant who knows their job? OK, I get it that musicians are supposed to be unworldly and not good with money but how do so many of them manage to fuck up the basics? Basics like understanding that you have to pay taxes and save some of that money that the record company is flinging at you? ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gillian-welch-fans-she-bought-a-guitar-and-a-messageboard-kerfuffle-ensues/675400/36 "2013-12-06T01:22:53Z")
> [@Finagle](#): > > Touching story. But is there \* anyone \* in the music industry who has \* ever \* had an honest, competent accountant who knows their job? OK, I get it that musicians are supposed to be unworldly and not good with money but how do so many of them manage to fuck up the basics? Basics like understanding that you have to pay taxes and save some of that money that the record company is flinging at you? Any that do, we won’t hear about. “Musician makes and keeps millions” is not a headline worthy story. Kate Bush, for example, formed a corporation with her family to license her music to EMI, and has a very nice pile of money indeed. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gillian-welch-fans-she-bought-a-guitar-and-a-messageboard-kerfuffle-ensues/675400/37 "2013-12-06T01:30:10Z")
> [@WordMan](#): > > The music is in the player’s hands - once they learn an approach, they can bring it to most other instruments. I started out as a sound engineer, and have little patience with primadonna guitarists whining about their “tone”. Why does every guitar amp with decent “tone” hum like it doesn’t know the freaking words! From what I’ve seen, a great player gets their sound out of anything they pick up. I hung out with Rev at a friends place, talking late into the night, and he pretty much always has a guitar in his hands when he’s relaxing. And he’d get his sound out of the battered piece of crap guitar that’s been sitting in our friend’s living room for a decade. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2013, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gillian-welch-fans-she-bought-a-guitar-and-a-messageboard-kerfuffle-ensues/675400/38 "2013-12-06T12:30:44Z")
We can agree to disagree. A lot of great music has been recorded on those guitars and amps. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gillian-welch-fans-she-bought-a-guitar-and-a-messageboard-kerfuffle-ensues/675400.md?page=1)