# Gimme the dirt on Ayn Rand! **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [July 29, 2002, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gimme-the-dirt-on-ayn-rand/121401 "2002-07-29T18:02:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Umbriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9de053/32.png) [@Umbriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Umbriel)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gimme-the-dirt-on-ayn-rand/121401/41 "2002-08-01T21:00:44Z")
I think this article about some recent research will be of interest to the contributors here. I don’t think Ayn would find the results surprising: [Envy Is Not To Be Trifled With](http://www.nationalpost.com/commentary/story.html?id=%7B4596314C-9F4A-43F6-AFF8-B8A6A22C0E52%7D) Couch potatoes seeking choice gossip will appreciate the fact that a film version of _The Passion of Ayn Rand_ exists, starring Helen Mirren: [http://us.imdb.com/Title?0140447](http://us.imdb.com/Title?0140447) ---
**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gimme-the-dirt-on-ayn-rand/121401/42 "2002-08-01T22:50:04Z")
Thank you, **Edward The Head**. Actually, I didn’t start reading _The Fountainhead_ with profound anti-Ayn-Rand-ism already started in me- it used to be one of my best friend’s favourite books, although she’s not an Objectivist by any means. Perhaps I misunderstood, but at least in T.F. she seemed to portray altruism as the desire to prevent the great from rising by enforcing mediocrity. At root, altruism was portrayed as badly-directed selfishness, related to “the worst kind of second-hander”, the one who desires power. I disagree with her definition of altruism. Anyone want to discuss it, or is that too much hijacking? I was unaware of any concurrent anti-Rand threads. Who else has been ranting? ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2002, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gimme-the-dirt-on-ayn-rand/121401/43 "2002-08-01T23:44:38Z")
[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=126721](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=126721) Ayn Rand thread over in Great Debates, more centered on her philsophy than the person and her behavior.(mostly) Steven ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2002, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gimme-the-dirt-on-ayn-rand/121401/44 "2002-08-02T02:14:56Z")
It seems that she believed everyone wanted the worst for everyone-that people who were altruistic weren’t REALLY altruistic-they just wanted to be selfish, but they were too chickenshit to admit it. I got the impression she had a hard time believing that there are those of us who actually DO enjoy being altruistic, not because there’s something in it for ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![Edward\_The\_Head](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ce73a5/32.png) [@Edward\_The\_Head](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Edward_The_Head)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2002, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gimme-the-dirt-on-ayn-rand/121401/45 "2002-08-02T14:45:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Lissla Lissar \* > Perhaps I misunderstood, but at least in T.F. she seemed to portray altruism as the desire to prevent the great from rising by enforcing mediocrity. At root, altruism was portrayed as badly-directed selfishness, related to “the worst kind of second-hander”, the one who desires power. I disagree with her definition of altruism. Anyone want to discuss it, or is that too much hijacking? I think that part of the problem is that people tend to forget what did happen to her and her family. It was already said above that the Russians took her family’s property away etc. She probably was afraid that the same type of thing would happen here in the US. Granted she did go over the top with Toohey so many people might have missed the point. I think that the “second-hander” was the type of person Toohey tried to be, basically a prick who was power hungry. I don’t think she meant that all people who were trying to be altruistic wanted power. > [@](#): > > I got the impression she had a hard time believing that there are those of us who actually DO enjoy being altruistic, not because there’s something in it for ourselves. She did address this, though I don’t remember exactly where. When you do something for someone else you do, and should get something out of it. She said though that the people who just out right say, oh I don’t get anything out of it I just help people, were the second-handers because they were lying to themselves. We can even look to Rand’s work for examples. In The Fountainhead Roark helped out Keating out a few times desiging some of Keating’s buildings. Roark worked when everyone else was gone, he got no money, but he did get what he wanted and that was to see his buildings built. Roark also designed the public housing building. To him it was a challenge and he got the satisfation of actaully doing what no one else could. He did destroy the building but that was because the “second-handers” basically took it over and made it more expensive than it needed to be. I still don’t see how Rand’s ideals go against giving of oneself. She mearly said that you must freely give of yourself and not be forced. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2002, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gimme-the-dirt-on-ayn-rand/121401/46 "2002-08-02T15:47:07Z")
> [@](#): > > I can see no reason, and you have not provided one, for this information other than to set up a ad-hominem attack on her philosophical ideas. If you want a subject for a case study in perversion, lying and backstabbing I would recommend hitting google and putting “Kennedy” in the search terms along with “lying”, “obsession”, or “double-cross.” Raaaa! What crawled up you hiny? I just wanted the gossip, which everyone here hints at but no one has given me the whole skinny. I suggest you take that chip off your shoulder and ither talk or stuff it. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2002, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gimme-the-dirt-on-ayn-rand/121401/47 "2002-08-02T20:09:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \* > \*\*Raaaa! What crawled up you hiny? I just wanted the gossip, which everyone here hints at but no one has given me the whole skinny. I suggest you take that chip off your shoulder and ither talk or stuff it. \*\* Personal curiosity is a perfectly acceptable reason for wanting this information. All I wanted was to be sure any words I gave you didn’t get repeated in some kind of arguement about the validity of her philosophical ideals. If you have no such arguement going on, then you are perfectly free to investigate her life for your own curiosity. Seems like you already know a good bit of it, betrayal, lies, obsession, etc. Kind of strikes me as a perverse curiosity, like going out of your way to watch a train wreck, but hey it’s your life. [http://www.vix.com/objectivism/Writing/RandBiography.html](http://www.vix.com/objectivism/Writing/RandBiography.html) A basic biography, not a whole lot of dirt here, but a decent basic timeframe is established. [http://www.2think.org/02\_2\_she.shtml](http://www.2think.org/02_2_she.shtml) “The Cult of Rand” a paper which describes the early days and adherants of her philosophy. Many choice quotes from Nathaniel and Barbera Brenden’s biographies/autobiographies. Some discussion on her ideals, mostly to show how she kept her disciples in line. [http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/biography/Rand.html](http://www.us-israel.org/jsource/biography/Rand.html) A fairly damning biography that doesn’t touch much on her ideas, just her history and activities. [http://womenshistory.about.com/library/bio/blbio\_rand\_ayn.htm](http://womenshistory.about.com/library/bio/blbio_rand_ayn.htm) A brief bio from [about.com](http://about.com) that summarizes many of the points touched on in the other areas. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2002, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gimme-the-dirt-on-ayn-rand/121401/48 "2002-08-02T22:05:41Z")
Of COURSE I get something out of it-it makes me feel better. I LIKE seeing others happy. This is going to sound so stuck up, but I see people suffering, and I think-well, what if I were in their place? I’d be miserable, and I’d want someone to help me. So, I help them-because I would want that in their place. That way, everyone is happy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gimme-the-dirt-on-ayn-rand/121401.md?page=2)