Gimme the dirt on Ayn Rand!

Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
21

The first time I heard about Rand, I thought it was the silliest philosophy I’d ever hear of. Only Monty Python has topped it, but evidently Rand was actually serious. It’s amazing that something that stupid has adherents.

There is a very funny send-up of Rand in Matt Ruff’s Sewer, Gas, and Electric: The Public Works Trilogy. One of the characters is a simulcrum of Rand, and it makes her hypocracy extremely clear.

My daughter’s English teacher this year was a Randroid; she had to read Anthem and The Fountainhead. I happened to read the key section in the latter, where Roark says what he does is one of the most selfish deeds anyone can do. The problem is that the setup is about as telegraphed as a Minstrel show. Sort of:

Mr. Interlocutor: That’s the most selfless thing anyone has ever done.
Mr. Bones: What did you say?
Mr. Interlocutor: That’s the most selfless thing anyone has ever done.
Mr. Bones: I didn’t hear you, Mr. Interlocutor. What did you say?
Mr. Interlocutor: I said, that’s the most selfless thing anyone has ever done.
Mr. Bones: No, it’s the most selfish thing anyone has ever done.
(Mr. Tambo bangs on his tamborine.)

Well, actully, no one in the history of the English language would have called Roark’s action in that case “selfless,” but Mr. Interlocutor does solely so that Mr. Bones . . . I mean Roark . . . can get to the punch line. From my daughter’s description, Rand would often portray one thing and then call it another, without a clue about what she was actually showing.

Ayn Rand, ultimately, is a joke.

22

Someone I know who’s into Rand said her disciples (if an Objectivist can have ‘disciples’… isn’t preaching egoism in effect practicising altruism?) try to hide the fact that her first name rhymes with “swine” and “whine”.

23

Plus, she pushed Brandon into a marriage when neither he nor his bride to be were really interested in one another-then declared that she and Brandon had to have a love affair. So they told their spouses. Her spouse, who, from what I’ve heard, was a sweet, gentle soul, never really got over this and was driven to drink. He loved her and treated her like a princess, but even though she claimed to have loved him greatly, and was kind to him, really treated him terribly.

Also, then later, after the affair tapered off, The Ayn found out that Brandon was having an affair with someone-and she shut him out, totally.
She died alone-miserable, bitter and insane.
Give me Mark Twain-I saw this link. It predates The Ayn, but I’ve always loved Mark Twain, so I thought I’d include it:
http://users.telerama.com/~joseph/mantble.html

24

Actually, if you are going to put her arguement in a nutshell, you should actually understand what Rand said. While you may disagree with Rand, totally misrepresenting her ideas is just lazy. (Did you ever read her stuff?)

Altruism is not, as you said, “wanting to do the right thing, for the good of the world”. In fact Altruism is the exact opposite. Altruism is the moral code that states sacraficing individuals (a person) for the good of others (The state, God, environment or whatever) is the highest moral value. While you may think that you have a moral reason to rob me of my stuff and give it to others due to the idea that it is altruistic, I disagree.

Personally I feel that altruistic people cannot support themselves and have no other option but to rob, in the name of altruism, those who can and do produce and earn their lives. If those who created wealth didn’t exist the altruists wouldn’t have anyone to rob. Then they would die.

Slee

25

I read “Atlas Shrugged” once because I heard so many references to it that I figured it was time to understand them.

I learned far more about the railroad than anyone would ever want to know. I learned crap about the steel industry, sort of. I waded through a bizarre tale of people I didn’t particularly care about. I skimmed and skipped a good 50-page or so speech near the end that, given the first two pages or so, read like some sort of manifesto and was excruciatingly boring, expository, and down-your-throatish.

In the end, it was unrealistic, forgettable and mostly annoying.

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I point out that this is a serious misrepresentation of Altruism. She should have made up a new word or found herself a dictionary.

27

Quite right. The doctrine that states an individual should be sacrificed for the good of the state or other institutions is commonly called fascism, not altruism.

According to the American Heritage Dictionary, altruism is “Unselfish concern for the welfare of others; selflessness.” (at http://www.dictionary.com/ ) There is no requirement for sacrifice, and certainly not for the sacrifice of those other than oneself. In reference to the original quote, stealing from someone to give to someone else is not altruism, since it shows no concern for the person from whom you steal.

This is typical of Rand and her followers to construct a straw man or total misrepresentation of her opponents, and then attack it. It is indicative that most of her thought is known through novels rather than works of philosophy, because her philosophising is so thin and unreasoned. In contrast, there were great philosophers who were also great writers (Sartre) but they are known by their philosophical texts as much as their literature.

Can I also mention that most reputable dictionaries of philosophy do not mention Rand, or give her only a couple of sentences? Her work is not taught in most modern philosophy courses, and is not even seriously studied by modern right-wing political philosophers (who much prefer the likes of Popper).

28

Yes quite frankly I think I can. And I don’t see myself as any more screwed up than anyone else.

:rolleyes: Where the hell does this come from? My parents chose to have me. Rand was never against children.

Quite frankly Rand was against the following types of statements

From

this site.

I first read Rand when I was 22 or so and while it was not a life changing event it was a revelation in the way that I had always understood what she was saying. This probably came from my father, who never actaully talked to me about Rand, he did try once or twice to get me to read her but I never did until I picked it up on my own.

Frankly though I’m tired of people bashing Rand, if you don’t like her fine, but damn there are at least two threads right now, and a good amount of people have even said they haven’t even read a whole book! Yep great way to know someone, by reading half a book of someone who has written a good body of work.

29

Moderator’s Notes: Before this thread spirals outta control, lemme just say, “Take it easy, everyone.”

30

I’ve had some friends go on and on about how amazing Ayn Rand is, yet every summary I’ve seen of her beliefs (from the Ayn Rand website, mostly) horrifies and repels me. But, before I officially change my name to “AynRandHater” I guess I’d better read her stuff. Is there one book that best exemplifies her philsophy?

31

Yeah, true. Communism, socialism and theocracies also fit the definition in reality. All four rely on the idea that “Unselfish concern for the welfare of others” is the highest moal value. Whether the ‘other’ is the state or god doesn’t matter. Fascist are at least honest about their goals, using force to gain power.**

Wow, when someone tries to correct a blatant mis-representation of Ayn Rands beliefs they are creating a straw man arguement. Yet the person who blantantly lied about Rand’s beliefs is automatically right. (See Hamish’s first post in this thread)

**

No, you can’t. You call me for making a straw man arguement and then back your arguement up with an appeal to authority. Now that’s good reasoning!!

Girl Next Door,

Try “The Fountainhead” and read some of her non-fiction books.

BTW, I am not an Objectivist. I am just sick of people dismissing Rand as a nut without understanding her ideas.

Slee

32

… I must admit I enjoyed the books (Atlas Shrugged, The Fountainhead, Anthem) when I read them in High school.

I always enjoy reading the horror and outrage at Rand’s ‘Virtue of Selfishness’.

My take was that she was leery of Fascist and Communist tactics of using Altruism (selfless action) to bitter ends. She valued the individual and extolled ‘the Virtue of Selfishness’.

Once again, my take on it is that Selfish does not equal Evil (as the Fascists, Leftists, Communists, etc.) would have you believe.

One can give one’s life for another, or for a ‘greater good’ as long as that is one’s value, but forcing others to sacrifice for what is a ‘stated’ greater value is evil, as long as that ‘stated’ greater value is not held as such by the individuals asked to sacrifice.

I didn’t dig much into the dirt on her personal life, but the main problem she had (it seems to me) was the black and white attitude she held. Either you were with her or you were twisted, stupid, or evil. A tactic used by the Fascists she deplored so much.

33

Fiction: Anthem (don’t worry it’s a short read)
Non Fiction: The Virtue of Selfishness

34

Right. Someone beat me to it. At the risk of annoying everyone by being a gopher, the O.E.D defines altruism as “regard for others”. I think of it as “self-sacrifice”.

I do apologise for offending Edward The Head. As above, I have read The Fountainhead, and yes, I did hate it. I profoundly disagree with her philosophy, and I was wondering, in a rather snide way, how her philosophy applies to raising children. I couldn’t picture it working. Please enlighten me. That is, after all, the purpose of this board. Oh, I did say that I was going to do more research on the subject- it wasn’t just a piece of throwaway criticism. Apologies for the offense.

BTW, the Straight Dope has made me infinitely more sarcastic, in the short time I’ve been here- an indirect effect of The Perfect Master? Perhaps I should revert to my original state.

35

I’ve always been curious about her writings, and had read part of The Virtue of Selfishness, so when I saw Barbara Braden’s biography * The Passion of Ayn Rand* in my favorite used book store, I picked it up. Things I learned: [ul] [] Her father was an uppermiddle class chemist before the revolution in Russia. Because of the Communists, she and her family barely survived starvation, at times subsiding on a slice of bread and two beans a piece all day. When she was 20 she “visited” her relatives who had settled in Chicago – never to return. Her parents were killed in the Siege of Leningrad, never to hear that their daugher had achieved any degree of the fame and sucess she did. She had changed her name when she got here (“Rand” was the brand name of the typewriter she was using, she had read the name Ayn in some book at some point) and after she DID get famous, it would have been deadly for her family to be connected to such an outspoken opponent of Communism. [] She was massively delusional, building the men she loved into mythical heroic figures that they never were. Her husband, Frank O’Connor was an unemployed actor his entire life, he didn’t work because he didn’t have to. She built him up into someone who was so disgusted with the socialist society she thought she lived in, that he REFUSED to work. Uh-huh. This poor man died confused, but loyal to the banshee till the end. []Granted, the bio I read was written by Nathanial Branden’s wife. However, the picture painted of Ayn towards the end of her life is far from complimentary. After Barbara and Nathanial’s “break” from Ayn, she (Ayn) wrote a scathing letter in the magazine that the three of them had created, renouncing the Brandens completely and accusing them of stealing money from the Nathanian Branden Institute, which was created to further the ideals of Objectivism. [] The general idea I got from the bio was Rand was a woman who NEVER had an emotion that was not justified by an intellectual thought. If she loved someone, it was because they were mythic, and therefore worthy of her love. If she disagreed with someone, they were blatently stupid for not UNDERSTANDING her arguments, and, thereby agreeing with her. She was also a genius, increadibly eloquent (especially considering that she never spoke English until she was 20.), charismatic and VERY persuasive. I still think a lot of Objectivism, and a lot of Rand’s morals, are just whack. However, I do believe that if people focused as much attention on themselves, and their weaknesses as they do on the people or things they love, we’d all be better off. Fix your own problems before you fix someone else’s. It’s not Objectivism, but it’s what I got out of Rand. [/ul]

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37

Bravo, Daowajan!

Art lies less in hardly acceptable truths, but rather in entirely acceptable lies.

38

Lissla Lissar, you didn’t offend me it was more of a reaction to what I had been reading negatively about Rand on this board for awhile. So if something I wrote came out mean it’s just the way I write.

Since no one really asked I will tell how Ayn Rand influenced/changed or whatever my life.

As I said before I first read her when I was 22. I had just gotten out of college so I was at my fathers house waiting for dinner, I think for my graduation. I was pretty bored so I was looking through his bookshelf. I had seen her books on his self before but never took any interest in them. I picked up Anthem since it was so small and I figured it would be something to do while I waited.

Quite frankly this book was what I was always looking for. Since I was a little kid I had different thoughts, at least from what I saw. Most of it was stuff like, “you need to do stuff for the good of the group.” Either I saw it differently or others accepted it. I’m still not sure.

I tried religion when I was 8 or 9, mostly because I was looking for answers. Even there you can see that they want to be second to God or just others in general.

I also tried Boy Scouts and the same thing happened. They were fairly similar to religion in that they wanted you to help everyone else.

Now I’m not saying there is anything wrong with helping others. Even Rand never said such a thing, and if someone can actually find this then please let me know, I personally have never seen it. I have most of her books so I can look it up. I have never seen her say don’t help others. What she said is that it is not your duty to help someone else. If you chose to help someone else that is fine but in no way should you be forced nor feel forced to do it. That was why I didn’t like the scouts or religion.

To Rand and to me you must always give the individual the choice to do as they want. She did not say anything about doing whatever you chose with a total disregard for others, again I’d like someone to point out where she said that. She actually said the exact opposite, you have no rights to do something that can harm someone else. She would have never said it’s ok to get rip roaring drunk and then go for a drive, that would put others at risk, something you have no right to do. My father used to say the same thing to me when I first learned to drive. He would tell me “If you want to drink, that’s pretty much fine by me. However, do not drive if you have been drinking. I will come and pick you up, but if I catch you driving after drinking I’ll kick your ass and you will not have a car.” I took that to mean that I don’t have the right to endanger others, much the same I took Rand to mean do what you want until the point that you may endanger another.

Even looking at The Fountainhead when Roark destroyed the building he made sure that the night watchman was gone, at least I’m pretty sure he did it’s been awhile since I read it.

That was only one of the things that I picked up from reading Rand. To me actually reading “It’s ok to be you, do with your life what you want,” was huge, I can not think of another book that just said that. Yes others have said it but even then it just was not the same, not for me.

I think that this is the biggest thing that I got out of reading Rand. There are other small things that off the top of my head I can not think of right now.

Now I guess though I can go onto the things that I did not like or at least not agree with that Rand wrote. I never understood her economics and most of it I don’t think would work. Then again who’s really does? I also didn’t like the way she killed some of the people in Atlas Shrugged, at one point there was an accident in a tunnel and she went into a small dialog about all the things that the passengers did and it’s ok that they died. I really didn’t like that, just because they did things that you don’t agree with doesn’t mean that you can just dismiss their lives.

Lissla Lissar, you asked me about rasing children. Well as I said I was raised at least a little bit by her philosophy. Looking back I can see how at least my father used some of what she said when bringing me up. The part about driving drunk is one. Actually they are all pretty much along the same lines, you have no right to harm others. I can also see how he chose to send me and my brother to college using his money. Talking to him now he has told me he wanted me to go to college and that he put money away because of that. He never had to save money and I’ve never gotten the feeling that he was forced to. Last night on Judge Judy she told someone it was there duty to send their kid to college and pay for it. I don’t see how anyone can say that.

My father also let me do pretty much what I wanted. Yes others let their kids do whatever, but from what I have seen it was different, he cared about what I did but let me do it to learn and not just let me run wild. I can’t really say what I want except my growing up just felt different from what I saw around me. I think that I will talk to my father about this as it will give me a better insight than me trying to say how he did it when I don’t know his thoughts. I will not really talk to him until next week though as I am going away for the weekend.

There is plenty more to say but right now I can’t put it to words, incase you haven’t noticed writing is not my strong point. However:

I place her books in this order, Anthem, The Fountainhead, We the Living, Atlas Shrugged. While I liked AS I did not get much out of it, Anthem gave me the jump start and The Fountainhead told me the rest.

As for dirt, I could care less about what Ayn Rand did with her personal life. No really I do not give a shit that she had an affair or didn’t live 100% to her own thoughts. I never read any of the books about her and know very little about her life and that’s mostly from the introductions of her books.

I think though that a lot of people, at least from what I have read around here, go into her books all wrong. Even Guinastasia went into AS knowing she would hate it, did you even finish it by the way, and of course she will. I used to do the same thing, go do something I know I would hate and end up hating it. Now I’ve come to learn that thinking at least a little bit positively that I might enjoy something and I do, by the way I’m not picking on you Guin, it’s just an example. I think one would need to read the book as just a book and let it tell you what it wants.

If anyone has any questions please let me know. I can only tell you how I interpret her works though and not how someone else will.

on preview I think this is the longest thing I’ve ever written here! :eek:

39

No. I will give you no dirt.

Why?

I can see no reason, and you have not provided one, for this information other than to set up a ad-hominem attack on her philosophical ideas. If you want a subject for a case study in perversion, lying and backstabbing I would recommend hitting google and putting “Kennedy” in the search terms along with “lying”, “obsession”, or “double-cross.”

Given lack of indications to the contrary I assume you are going to try to perpetrate what amounts to intellectual fraud in a conversation/debate/discussion/paper about objectivism. I will not be a party to such behavior.

For any rabid anti-Randists, I am not defending her or her ideals. I am simply trying to stamp out what I believe to be the beginning of an instance of intellectual dishonesty. If smiling bandit assures me that she/he is simply doing research on Rand as a person and will not use incidents from her life as some sort of “proof” of the invalidity of her ideas I will re-consider providing “dirt.”

Have a nice day,
Steven

40

Unfortunately, when I was near the end of Atlas Shrugged, our kitten had to be put to sleep, and I really wasn’t up to it.

Suffice to say, I think the reason I KNEW I would hate it is that I’m the anti-Rand. I’m a big bleeding heart pinko liberal. Naturally, The Ayn isn’t going to be a big hit with me.