# Giraffe: tag, you're it. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 17, 2009, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315 "2009-07-17T07:33:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/181 "2009-07-21T02:46:42Z")
You mean they can’t spell that one right, either? ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/182 "2009-07-21T03:03:52Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > You mean they can’t spell that one right, either? We should feel lucky they aren’t spelling it prisoun. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/183 "2009-07-21T04:07:56Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > There was a Starbucks patio nearby and the police went and interviewed all the people sitting there until they found someone willing to state that he was offended by the “faggot” comment. This was their justification for the disturbance charge. That’s what you get when the IWW unionizes Starbucks. It’d be fun to see the real-world version of the events **Smash** is relating to us. ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 10:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/184 "2009-07-21T10:22:02Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I still see no evidence that the threat of a picket line did anything. It seems extraordinarily likely to me that cops who are looking for reasons to arrest homeless people in an effort to get them out of the city would be delighted to hear that a bunch of homeless people are going to congregate in front of the local jail and probably violate some ordinance or another in the process (you know as well as anyone that the police can find violations when they look for them, of course). Instead, it seems likely that someone reviewed the case and decided it was bullshit. The OPU isn’t _just_ “a bunch of homeless people.” We have street artists, buskers, a few prostitutes, a pot dealer, and so on among our members. Anyone who makes their living on the street is welcome to join. When we hold actions like pickets, it’s not just our members who show up, also. We get ex-members who have since gotten off the street, the members of the IWW local, and the usual crowd who turn up when you put a call-out up on Indymedia. Also, bear in mind that the workers at the prison are unionized. Many unions have a formal policy that they will not cross picket lines, for any reason. A Teamster who crosses a picket line to make a delivery, for example, is fined heavily by the union. While it’s unlikely guards would be deterred, support staff might, and likewise deliveries. Picketing a prison is also good for a lot of media attention, something they well know, and they admitted to us that what they were doing to our members was in all likelihood a violation of the Charter. You seem to think we go into negotiations with guns blazing and spittle flying. We are polite and reasonable when we make our demands. It’s when those demands aren’t met that we turn up the heat. The prison wardens were mostly in agreement with us that it was not reasonable for our member to be crawling on his hands and knees, and that it was also not reasonable to expect him to live in total isolation. Incidentally, there was no library because the detention centre was undergoing renovations to expand it due to chronic overcrowding (largely as a result of police and the courts using it to warehouse the poor). Unlike federal prisons which hold long-term inmates, the detention centre is not required to have any kind of support services like a library or treatment programs. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Your story has a discrepancy in it. You’re confused because there weren’t two, there were _three_ arrests. The first arrest was for a different set of charges. (He’s almost always up on charges for _something_, whether it’s possession, shoplifting, creating a disturbance, or violating bail conditions. That’s life on the street.) If you’re arrested multiple times, you get what the lawyers call “fries with that.” Your bail conditions always have a clause which states, “Keep the peace and be of good behaviour.” If you are charged again, they count it as a violation of that condition and slap you with “fries on that.” And of course, if you’re currently facing multiple charges, each of them gets its own side of fries. If you are seen to be consistently violating your bail conditions, they judge will refuse to grant bail on other charges. In Kanada, there are three reasons they can deny you bail: (1) If the court believes you to be a flight risk, (2) if the court believes you to be a potential threat to yourself or others or others’ property, or (3) if releasing you would “bring the law into disrepute.” It is this third condition that the judge uses to justify denying bail to someone who has, in the past, been seen to violate conditions of bail. So you don’t actually have to be facing those charges **right now** in order to be denied bail. If it’s happened in the past, the Crown will certainly bring it up and try to convince the judge it’ll happen again. > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Or do you think that, given the current system (no answering “destroy all prisons!”), it’d be best to put a wheelchair-bound inmate in general population with a wheelchair? The weapon concern seems legitimate. During our discussion with the wardens (which was quite cordial, incidentally), we tried, collectively to find possible solutions. One of the things I suggested was that he can’t be the only wheelchair-bound person in the prison system, and surely there are prison-safe wheelchairs. They scratched their heads and admitted they’d never heard of such a thing, but that they’d investigate. The other option we put on the table was to have a full-time assistant for our member, so that if he needed to go to the toilet or wheel over to the tables, he need only call for the assistant to bring the chair from outside the cell. Given that they had already admitted that denying him the use of his wheelchair was probably a Charter violation, and that giving him his wheelchair wasn’t an option (they said they guards’ union would scream bloody murder about workplace safety if they allowed it), the full-time assistant may have been the only option left to them. This is what makes me believe they pressured the court to release him. He was not even scheduled for a court appearance, much less release, and then two days before the deadline we gave them, they contacted his lawyer and informed him they would be releasing him, without explanation. Their choices were either (1) pay for a full-time assistant for a single prisoner charged with a petty crime, (2) have a picket line outside their gates with attendant media circus and then be on the losing side of a Human Rights Commission complaint to boot, or (3) release him. It’s pretty clear why they chose door #3. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/185 "2009-07-21T13:06:31Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Anyone who makes their living on the street is welcome to join. Even mimes? No wonder the cops hate you. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/186 "2009-07-21T13:17:35Z")
Just thought I’d throw [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7cry-4pyy8) in for the entertainment value. ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/187 "2009-07-21T13:30:17Z")
> [@Oy](#): > > Just thought I’d throw [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7cry-4pyy8) in for the entertainment value. And I’ll throw [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHd6m_cirrU) one in for the educational value. ---
**Author:** ![Oy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bc8723/32.png) [@Oy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oy)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/188 "2009-07-21T15:28:45Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > And I’ll throw [this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zHd6m_cirrU) one in for the educational value. That’s _deep_. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/189 "2009-07-21T15:41:25Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > I think if you go back and read what I wrote, you’ll find I never made any such claim about the “supposedly enlightened nature of Athenian society.” What I did was cite the Greeks as historic evidence that a professional police class is not required in order to maintain civil society. Do you really think you’d feel safer walking around 5th century BCE Athens at night than a town of similar size in modern North America? ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/190 "2009-07-21T15:45:05Z")
> [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](#): > > Do you really think you’d feel safer walking around 5th century BCE Athens at night than a town of similar size in modern North America? Me, personally? Yes, yes I would. The only people who have ever assaulted me with weapons wore guns and badges. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/191 "2009-07-21T15:47:32Z")
> [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](#): > > Do you really think you’d feel safer walking around 5th century BCE Athens at night than a town of similar size in modern North America? You’re wasting your time. I tried earlier in this thread to get him to view a more complete appraisal of the nature of Athenian society, and he refused to acknowledge it. He cherry-picks things he likes about past societies, while ignoring their darker aspects. Much like he cherry-picks things he hates about modern Western democracy, while refusing to acknowledge its benevolent aspects. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/192 "2009-07-21T15:58:25Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Me, personally? Yes, yes I would. The only people who have ever assaulted me with weapons wore guns and badges. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes. I sure as hell wouldn’t. Nor would I in Rome, which was also in essence a self-policing type of place. Just because there were no police and private citizens were responsible for bringing people to court doesn’t mean that there wasn’t lots of violence. Not to mention that the Athenian system could not have worked in a modern city just based on the difference in community structure. Part of self-policing is knowing who lives next door to you. This is much easier in an ancient city of, probably, somewhere around 120,000 total inhabitants, including women and slaves. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/193 "2009-07-21T15:59:30Z")
> [@Fuji](#): > > You’re wasting your time. I tried earlier in this thread to get him to view a more complete appraisal of the nature of Athenian society, and he refused to acknowledge it. He cherry-picks things he likes about past societies, while ignoring their darker aspects. Much like he cherry-picks things he hates about modern Western democracy, while refusing to acknowledge its benevolent aspects. Well, I do sort of disagree that just because Athens had slaves, nothing they did can be considered admirable. Obviously they aren’t a good model of society as a whole, but it’s fair to pick parts that one likes. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/194 "2009-07-21T16:11:26Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Me, personally? Yes, yes I would. The only people who have ever assaulted me with weapons wore guns and badges. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes. You prefer being beaten up by [Scythians with Bows and Whips](http://www.stoa.org/projects/demos/article_scythian_archers?page=all&greekEncoding=GreekXLit) somehow? Not to mention Athens would have banished you. Ain’t ancient life grand? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/195 "2009-07-21T16:21:35Z")
> [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](#): > > I sure as hell wouldn’t. Nor would I in Rome, which was also in essence a self-policing type of place. Just because there were no police and private citizens were responsible for bringing people to court doesn’t mean that there wasn’t lots of violence. > [@](#): > > And now regard the different and diverse perils of the night. See what a height it is to that towering roof from which a potsherd comes crack upon my head every time that some broken or leaky vessel is pitched out of the window! See with what a smash it strikes and dints the pavement! There’s death in every open window as you pass along at night; you may well be deemed a fool, improvident of sudden accident, if you go out to dinner without having made your will. You can but hope, and put up a piteous prayer in your heart, that they may be content to pour down on you the contents of their slop-basins! > > Your drunken bully who has by chance not slain his man passes a night of torture like that of Achilles when he bemoaned his friend, lying now upon his face, and now upon his back; he will get no rest in any other way, since some men can only sleep after a brawl. Yet however reckless the fellow may be, however hot with wine and young blood, he gives a wide berth to one whose scarlet cloak and long retinue of attendants, with torches and brass lamps in their hands, bid him keep his distance. > > But to me, who am wont to be escorted home by the moon, or by the scant light of a candle whose wick I husband with due care, he pays no respect. Hear how the wretched fray begins–if fray it can be called when you do all the thrashing and I get all the blows! The fellow stands up against me, and bids me halt; obey I must. What else can you do when attacked by a madman stronger than yourself? ‘Where are you from?’ shouts he; ‘whose vinegar, whose beans have blown you out? With what cobbler have you been munching cut leeks and boiled wether’s chaps?–What, sirrah, no answer? Speak out, or take that upon your shins! Say, where is your stand? In what prayer-shop shall I find you?’ Whether you venture to say anything, or make off silently, it’s all one: he will thrash you just the same, and then, in a rage, take bail from you. Such is the liberty of the poor man: having been pounded and cuffed into a jelly, he begs and prays to be allowed to return home with a few teeth in his head! > > Nor are these your only terrors. When your house is shut, when bar and chain have made fast your shop, and all is silent, you will be robbed by a burglar; or perhaps a cut-throat will do for you quickly with cold steel. For whenever the Pontine marshes and the Gallinarian forest are secured by an armed guard, all that tribe flocks into Rome as into a fish-preserve. What furnaces, what anvils, are not groaning with the forging of chains? That is how our iron is mostly used; and you may well fear that ere long none will be left for plough-shares, none for hoes and mattocks. Happy, you would say, were the forbears of our great-grandfathers, happy the days of old which under Kings and Tribunes beheld Rome satisfied with a single gaol! Juvenal, Satire 5 ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/196 "2009-07-21T16:58:03Z")
> [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](#): > > Well, I do sort of disagree that just because Athens had slaves, nothing they did can be considered admirable. I never said that, nor would I. I’m a big fan of Athens, warts and all, much like I’m still proud to be an American citizen, despite the fact that the country was founded on African slavery and aboriginal genocide. > [@](#): > > Obviously they aren’t a good model of society as a whole, but it’s fair to pick parts that one likes. It’s only fair to pick parts one likes if one also honestly acknowledges how good they have it now, and how much worse things could be (and are, in much of the world). ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/197 "2009-07-21T17:36:10Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Me, personally? Yes, yes I would. The only people who have ever assaulted me with weapons wore guns and badges. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes. As a male member of the native-born, property-owning class, you’d be safer in old Athens than many would. But your Latin wouldn’t help much… ---
**Author:** ![42fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/4/b487fb/32.png) [@42fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/42fish)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/198 "2009-07-21T17:37:10Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > You prefer being beaten up by [Scythians with Bows and Whips](http://www.stoa.org/projects/demos/article_scythian_archers?page=all&greekEncoding=GreekXLit) somehow? Are the Scythians going to tell me I’ve been a naughty, naughty boy during the whipping? ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/199 "2009-07-21T18:53:28Z")
> [@42fish](#): > > Are the Scythians going to tell me I’ve been a naughty, naughty boy during the whipping? Stay safe, use a Trojan. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2009, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/200 "2009-07-21T19:20:36Z")
> [@ashman165](#): > > You don’t seem to understand the idea of scale. What would a village elder in a country as large the US be? How would people stop by and consult said elders? While your suggested form of governance might work on a small scale, and I don’t doubt it would work well in small scales, it simply isn’t workable when a society has some 300 million people. I still haven’t seen this objection addressed, and I’d really like to. (This was always one of my main objections to anarchy–I think it’s great in theory, and it works well in at least some small groups, but that it breaks down once the population gets big enough.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315.md?page=11)