# Giraffe: tag, you're it. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 17, 2009, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315 "2009-07-17T07:33:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/81 "2009-07-18T14:07:12Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Had Heathkit 9700 modem. Had a special switch you could change from binary code to Morse, but the instruction manual didn’t say why you might want to. Operating system was Uno, which was about half as good as DOS. Had six 10 year old children who ran back and forth with little ones and zeros. Had a switch too, but the kind you beat the kids with if they slow down. Operating system was Zero, which wasn’t good at all. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/82 "2009-07-18T14:07:46Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > The early police force in New York City was entirely volunteer. Force\_s\_. There were two of them, under control of different segments of the city government. There were… conflicts. Riots, really. Smash, you really should start a new thread in MPSIMS about your political philosophy, because this is really off topic, and I wouldn’t mind a nice long discussion here. We can talk about the inherent organizing quality of the human spirit, the size limitations of anarchy, and so on. It’ll be fun! ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/83 "2009-07-18T16:17:09Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > You are correct on the etymology of the term – it comes from Latin, not Greek – however, this is beside the point I was making, that the Greeks had no professional police class whatsoever. > > _One of the most remarkable features of Athenian democracy is the extent to which legal services themselves (dispute resolution and enforcement) were the province of civil society rather than of the state. Laws were passe by the state (or at any rate through the state, via popular referendum), and applied by governmental courts (manned by juries). But there were no police, and no public prosecutors. All suits were treated as civil suits, prosecuted by the victim; offenses against the community as a whole were prosecuted by self-selected individuals on behalf of the larger society, rather like class-action suits today. (No distinction between crimes and torts was recognised.) And even before coming to court, litigants were asked to seek private arbitration, thus exhausting all avenues within civil society before turning to the state (rather the opposite of today’s practice)._ – **Roderick T. Long** , Associate Professor of Philosophy at Auburn University > > _“Most of the major tasks of policing – investigation, apprehension, prosecution, and even in some cases enforcement of court decisions – fell to the citizens themselves. For private initiative and self-help were the rule. … Here punitive enforcement is not the result of coercion by a central authority but of autonomous self-regulation on the part of the community. … For many of the functions that the modern state now entrusts to bureaucracy, police, or judiciary were embedded in a variety of social institutions …”_ – **Hunter, Virginia J.** 1994. Policing Athens: Social Control in the Attic Lawsuits, 420-320 B.C. Princeton University Press, Princeton. Curious that such an adamant foe of oppression would be such a great fan of Athenian democracy. The same Athenian democracy where it was quite legal to hold other human beings as chattel. The same Athenian democracy whose original requests for voluntary assistance to the Delian League quickly became enforced tribute. Here’s another Athenian quote for you: > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **Thucydides** > > ‘For ourselves, we shall not trouble you with specious pretences–either of how we have a right to our empire because we overthrew the Mede, or are now attacking you because of wrong that you have done us–and make a long speech which would not be believed; and in return we hope that you, instead of thinking to influence us by saying that you did not join the Lacedaemonians, although their colonists, or that you have done us no wrong, will aim at what is feasible, holding in view the real sentiments of us both; since you know as well as we do that right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.’ I’ll take modern representative democracy any day, thank you very much. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/84 "2009-07-18T16:40:29Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > So what? So what you said was stupid and wrong, and the Yanomamo are not an example of a peaceful anarchic group. The pattern seems to be [ul][li]You make a statement - 'vigilante" comes from the Greek, the Yanomamo are a peaceful anarchic people, the New York police force was entirely volunteer, etc. [_]Dopers all stop by and blow these assertions out of the water. [_]You then move the goal posts (“I really meant the highland Yanomamo!” “Greek democracy was a great example of anarchic self-rule!”)[_]Those statements get blown out of the water too.[_]You whine about how mean and closed-minded we are because we don’t accept your BS at face value the way homeless teen agers do[_]then you run away and start another thread[_]Lather, rinse, repeat[/ul][/li] Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![ashman165](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@ashman165](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ashman165)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/85 "2009-07-18T17:08:52Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So what you said was stupid and wrong, and the Yanomamo are not an example of a peaceful anarchic group. > > The pattern seems to be [ul][li]You make a statement - 'vigilante" comes from the Greek, the Yanomamo are a peaceful anarchic people, the New York police force was entirely volunteer, etc. [_]Dopers all stop by and blow these assertions out of the water. [_]You then move the goal posts (“I really meant the highland Yanomamo!” “Greek democracy was a great example of anarchic self-rule!”)[_]Those statements get blown out of the water too.[_]You whine about how mean and closed-minded we are because we don’t accept your BS at face value the way homeless teen agers do[_]then you run away and start another thread[_]Lather, rinse, repeat[/ul][/li] > Regards, > Shodan Come now, surely two examples doesn’t a pattern make, right? ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/86 "2009-07-18T17:11:29Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > So what? You’ll find violence everywhere on Earth, with or without freedom, with or without tyranny. No one has ever claimed that anarchism is Utopian. Human beings will remain human beings. The important part which you seem to be deliberately trying to obfuscate is that the Yanomani live in a brutal environment where starvation is a constant threat – and yet the anarchist Siapa Yanomani of the highlands are so much more peaceful than the lowlanders that the anthropologists who study them can hardly believe they’re the same tribe. And what’s even more astonishing is that the highland people have even worse conditions with less food than those in the lowlands. **Violence** But aren’t they both anarchist societies? Assuming this is the case, we can conclude that, of the anarchist societies given as examples so far, some are relatively peaceful and some are relatively violent. With the caveat that we don’t know how these compare to our own societies (at least I don’t, I haven’t seen the numbers). In the Siapi Yanomani, is there as much domestic violence as was described previously in the lowland tribe? To prove your point, we would need far more examples of anarchist societies and comparisons of violence etc. What I think most people see are examples like Afghanistan, Iraq, most of Africa, Eastern Europe, where power vacuums have been quickly filled by warlords or regional/ethnic fighting that was previously kept in check. If your position has any merit it seems that it would require cultural support that can only be arrived at through lots and lots of baby steps over a loooooong period of time. **Authority** You stated that we are trained to think that authority is good, etc. but I know for myself, and I assume pretty much everyone, we are fully aware of the various trade-offs regarding authority and consciously accept them or do not accept them depending on the specific situation. There are pros and there are cons to our current system, just as there are with anarchy. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/87 "2009-07-18T17:16:08Z")
> [@Covered\_In\_Bees](#): > > It’s ok. I don’t imagine being officially Pitted by a troll counts for much anyways. I have a little free time tomorrow. I can Pit you then if that would help. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/88 "2009-07-18T17:42:11Z")
The Yanomanö, those lucky motherfuckers living in a pre-Neolithilic-revolution society, I envy their freedom and their lack of basically everything that makes my life easy. They may lead a life most of us wouldn’t choose for the guy who raped our family, but, dudes, their respected-elder system rocks. ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/89 "2009-07-18T18:21:15Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > The Yanomanö, those lucky motherfuckers living in a pre-Neolithilic-revolution society, I envy their freedom and their lack of basically everything that makes my life easy. > They may lead a life most of us wouldn’t choose for the guy who raped our family, but, dudes, their respected-elder system rocks. Wouldn’t it make more sense to compare the (putatively) anarchist Siapa Ya̧nomamö with similar, non-anarchist tribes, such as the lowland Ya̧nomamö, as **SmashTheState** has done, rather than societies that differ from them in just about every conceivable way? No one is arguing that Ya̧nomamö life is better overall than life in the US, but thanks for knocking down that strawman for us. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/90 "2009-07-18T20:27:36Z")
Not that it matters, but I have read a bit here and there that suggests that the whole discussion about the Yanomamo is currently the subject of much controversy, anthropology-wise, center about the methods and ethics of the aforementioned Mr. Chagnon. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/91 "2009-07-18T21:07:35Z")
Won’t someone think of the Yanomamo children? ---
**Author:** ![Harborwolf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Harborwolf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harborwolf)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/92 "2009-07-18T21:10:42Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > Won’t someone think of the Yanomamo children? I’ll think of them the whole time that I’m raping their women and beating their fathers to death with my axe. Then I’ll introduce them to McGruff the Crime Dog. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/93 "2009-07-18T22:51:48Z")
Too bad you weren’t still a mod, **Giraffe** , you could have just banned him yourself. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/94 "2009-07-18T23:14:27Z")
> [@waterj2](#): > > Wouldn’t it make more sense to compare the (putatively) anarchist Siapa Ya̧nomamö with similar, non-anarchist tribes, such as the lowland Ya̧nomamö, as **SmashTheState** has done, rather than societies that differ from them in just about every conceivable way? No one is arguing that Ya̧nomamö life is better overall than life in the US, but thanks for knocking down that strawman for us. My knoledge of Yanomanö sub-groups is extremely limited to say any more about them. As to the strawmanness of my argument I think you’re missing the point (aside from my living four thousand kilometers away from the US). If \*\*StS \*\*says that they (Siapa Yanomanö) are a good example of an anarchist society, I think it is perfectly acceptable to show how far anarchism has taken them. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/95 "2009-07-19T00:14:24Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > **Smash** , a question: how do your political opinions differ from **Psychonaut’s** , as explained in [this](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=519493)thread? I’m sure they differ a great deal. I was almost going to post a more detailed explanation, but it’s difficult to take seriously someone who is concerned with zombies invading the US and who rejects science and materialism in favour of “oh-so-terribly-fashionable Buddhist bullshit” (as **Capt. Ridley’s Shooting Party** puts it). ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/96 "2009-07-19T00:41:33Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So what you said was stupid and wrong, and the Yanomamo are not an example of a peaceful anarchic group. > > The pattern seems to be [ul][li]You make a statement - 'vigilante" comes from the Greek, the Yanomamo are a peaceful anarchic people, the New York police force was entirely volunteer, etc. [_]Dopers all stop by and blow these assertions out of the water. [_]You then move the goal posts (“I really meant the highland Yanomamo!” “Greek democracy was a great example of anarchic self-rule!”)[_]Those statements get blown out of the water too.[_]You whine about how mean and closed-minded we are because we don’t accept your BS at face value the way homeless teen agers do[_]then you run away and start another thread[_]Lather, rinse, repeat[/ul][/li] Sorry, which one of us is the troll, again? As near as I can tell, you are composed entirely of equal parts smarm and snark. I have yet to see you provide any kind of response which wouldn’t earn you a clop in the chops if you were so unwise as to take that tone with someone in the real world within arm’s length. You are, simply, lying. I haven’t moved any goalposts, I have cogently answered the questions I’ve been posed, politely ignored the “you are an asshole” drive-bys the same way one ignores uncouth people who drool or fart in public, and been extremely patient in researching citations to support my statements. You, on the other hand, follow a pattern very much like that of which you accuse me, which leads me to believe you are engaging in some classic projection. First, you accuse me of trolling for holding an opinion which differs from yours. Then you say I’m stupid. In the rudest and most condescending manner you claim that I have made up everything I wrote from whole cloth. When I provide citations to support my claims by the very person you claimed refuted my claims, you switch tactics and move your goalposts. When I – once again – politely and in good faith point out that I have never claimed what you’re saying I claimed (that anarchism will turn people into little angels). your response is more smarm, more snark, and an attempt to turn the discussion from your (losing) counter-claims to my personality, about as classic an _ad hominem_ argument as anyone could ask for. [QUOTE] [ul][li]You whine about how mean and closed-minded we are because we don’t accept your BS at face value the way homeless teen agers do[_]then you run away and start another thread[_]Lather, rinse, repeat[/ul][/li][/QUOTE] No, what I do is exactly what I’m about to do here. When I have spent a lot of time answering questions, finding citations, and supporting my assertions in good faith, and then receive nothing but insults, condescension, and the sort of mean-spirited and adolescent ridicule one normally finds in a middle school locker room, I refuse to share any more of my time with those responsible. I’m not Liberal or lekatt, I won’t be your dancing monkey-boy. Go vomit your bile elsewhere, because all you’ve done is prove that you are intellectually dishonest and any effort I spend attempting to talk to, with, or at you is a complete waste. Good day, Smash. ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/97 "2009-07-19T00:51:27Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > I’m sure they differ a great deal. I was almost going to post a more detailed explanation, but it’s difficult to take seriously someone who is concerned with zombies invading the US and who rejects science and materialism in favour of “oh-so-terribly-fashionable Buddhist bullshit” (as **Capt. Ridley’s Shooting Party** puts it). You know, I had spent some time reading that thread and was preparing a response, but since you’ve decided you just had to dip your oar in the water and prove that you’re kind of a dipshit, I’m not going to bother. Incidentally, your dishonest statement here (I’m not concerned with zombies invading the US, I’m interested to know whether the _Pentagon_ is; I certainly reject naive materialism, and it is BECAUSE of my interest in science – the philosophy of empiricism – that I do so) doesn’t speak too well of your political integrity. You provide a perfect example of why political parties are incapable of revolutionary action, and why the Wobblies sent your type packing with Eugene Debbs. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/98 "2009-07-19T01:11:38Z")
Aren’t our current police forces entirely volunteer? Or did we start drafting cops when I wasn’t looking? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/99 "2009-07-19T01:17:46Z")
Yes, But they’re paid by THE STATE, rather than with judicious handfuls of grain and salt from the people’s commissary. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2009, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315/100 "2009-07-19T01:25:57Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > …and why the Wobblies sent your type packing with Eugene Debbs. That’s Mr. Eugene V. Debs to your ass, Trotskyite splitter! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giraffe-tag-youre-it/503315.md?page=6)