# Girl-girl exception to monogamy? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 14, 2013, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-girl-exception-to-monogamy/676296 "2013-12-14T06:15:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-girl-exception-to-monogamy/676296/41 "2013-12-14T20:06:37Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > For a lot of straight men it’s still all about them, their dicks, and the paternity of their offspring. Girl-girl doesn’t count because it’s not involving them, not involving their dicks, and doesn’t affect the paternity of their children and therefore isn’t really sex. > > Sorry if that comes off a bit harsh. Yeah, it’s not logical, it’s psychological. As a guy, you don’t want to be unknowingly raising somebody else’s children. I mean, it’s kind of a dead end, from a evolution-genetics point of view. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2013, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-girl-exception-to-monogamy/676296/42 "2013-12-14T20:15:00Z")
Then there are the husbands who aren’t just cool with having bisexual wives, there are the guys who coerce scenes between their wives and other women. While not unheard of, the comparative pairing of two men at a wife’s behest doesn’t occurr as frequently, outside the realm of sissy-porn. But for comparative coercive/controlling behavior, there are women who consider it cheating for their blue-balled husbands to masturbate (maybe it “doesn’t count” if it’s done while viewing sissy-porn). ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-girl-exception-to-monogamy/676296/43 "2013-12-15T00:05:20Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > For a lot of straight men it’s still all about them, their dicks, and the paternity of their offspring. Girl-girl doesn’t count because it’s not involving them, not involving their dicks, and doesn’t affect the paternity of their children and therefore isn’t really sex. > > Sorry if that comes off a bit harsh. Lesbian sex _is_ really sex, but it is sex that does not hurt my feelings. I am not an ogre, and do not want to deny my girlfriend emotional connections to other people for its own sake. Being pushed out of our relationship would hurt my feelings, but that’s true whether the “other man” is a man, woman, or nobody at all. It’s an entirely different issue. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-girl-exception-to-monogamy/676296/44 "2013-12-15T01:02:00Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Lesbian sex _is_ really sex, but it is sex that does not hurt my feelings. I am not an ogre, and do not want to deny my girlfriend emotional connections to other people for its own sake. > > Being pushed out of our relationship would hurt my feelings, but that’s true whether the “other man” is a man, woman, or nobody at all. It’s an entirely different issue. You do not explicitly mention if a zipless “straight” fling with no intent to displace you in the relationship would hurt your feelings, though your posts suggest that you understand it would be uncomfortable to many. Yes, if someone does not mind the other person having other connections, but the hurt would come at being displaced no matter who did it, that’s an understandable approach. ---
**Author:** ![Cerealbox](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7ab992/32.png) [@Cerealbox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cerealbox)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-girl-exception-to-monogamy/676296/45 "2013-12-15T01:35:10Z")
> [@MostlyClueless](#): > > What is considered cheating is up to the people in the relationship, but if no explicit arrangement has been made, girl-girl action seems to me just as bad as any other gender combo. This. The whole thing sounds more like a fantasy than anything that would happen in reality. And it’s really quite offensive if you were to take it literally. Sex between two men counts as sex, but lesbians - pfft, we all know that all lesbians are really just curious and kinky little sexpots! There’s no such thing as real lesbians! Give me a break. ---
**Author:** ![LinusK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/258eb7/32.png) [@LinusK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LinusK)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-girl-exception-to-monogamy/676296/46 "2013-12-15T04:42:08Z")
Ok so I showed the poll results to my wife, and here’s what she said: 11 people who know what they’re talking about, and 102 dumbasses. So now you know what I’m dealing with. ---
**Author:** ![typoink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecb155/32.png) [@typoink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typoink)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-girl-exception-to-monogamy/676296/47 "2013-12-15T05:14:05Z")
“Cheating” isn’t a precise, discrete concept. It depends on the relationship whether this is “cheating” or not. That said, a heterosexual relationship in which the female partner is having sex with another partner, regardless of gender, is not a monogamous relationship. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-girl-exception-to-monogamy/676296/48 "2013-12-15T05:22:16Z")
It’s only cheating if you tell one of your lovers you aren’t ever going to have sex with anyone else. Gender hasn’t anything to do with it. And yes, it’s insulting to say or imply that when women have sex with other women it somehow doesn’t really count for anything. There are a whole lot of people I don’t understand. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-girl-exception-to-monogamy/676296/49 "2013-12-15T05:22:51Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > You do not explicitly mention if a zipless “straight” fling with no intent to displace you in the relationship would hurt your feelings, though your posts suggest that you understand it would be uncomfortable to many. Yes, her having sex with a man on the side would hurt my feelings in a way her having sex with a woman on the side would not. > [@Cerealbox](#): > > The whole thing sounds more like a fantasy than anything that would happen in reality. And it’s really quite offensive if you were to take it literally. Sex between two men counts as sex, but lesbians - pfft, we all know that all lesbians are really just curious and kinky little sexpots! There’s no such thing as real lesbians! Give me a break. We’re not talking about a “real lesbian”, but a bisexual woman. A woman _can_ be sexually attracted to both men and women. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-girl-exception-to-monogamy/676296/50 "2013-12-15T06:52:50Z")
I’m very offended by this question. The implication is that same-sex encounters DON’T COUNT, that it’s just sort of playing around and isn’t real sex. Well, suppose it’s the other way around: What if a woman in a lesbian relationship had sex with a man? Shouldn’t that be exactly the same thing? Sex is sex, regardless of gender. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-girl-exception-to-monogamy/676296/51 "2013-12-15T06:58:22Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > Well, suppose it’s the other way around: What if a woman in a lesbian relationship had sex with a man? Shouldn’t that be exactly the same thing? Sex is sex, regardless of gender. That would be entirely dependent on what her partner thought of it… _or_ you could just get up on your soapbox and say how terrible it is that this lesbian doesn’t have a problem with her bisexual partner sleeping with a guy on the side. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Rala](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@Rala](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rala)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-girl-exception-to-monogamy/676296/52 "2013-12-15T07:03:59Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > We’re not talking about a “real lesbian”, but a bisexual woman. A woman _can_ be sexually attracted to both men and women. I’m a bisexual woman, and I find it offensive for pretty much the reasons he said. Like some people said up thread, men tend to think sex is all about them and their dicks. That’s why there’s this concept of bi women as basically just sexually adventurous straight girls - people think of bi women kissing other women while their boyfriends watch, or having threesomes, or having flings with women before settling down with a man. Girl-on-girl isn’t seen as threatening to heterosexual relationships because it isn’t thought of as real, not like sex with a man. But bisexuality isn’t heterosexuality with a cherry on top. My feelings for/relationships with women are _real_, every bit as genuine as my feelings for/relationships with men, so of course the cheating would be real too. I find it insulting when people say it’s not. ---
**Author:** ![Blackberry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecd19e/32.png) [@Blackberry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blackberry)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-girl-exception-to-monogamy/676296/53 "2013-12-15T07:24:54Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I’m very offended by this question. The implication is that same-sex encounters DON’T COUNT, that it’s just sort of playing around and isn’t real sex. Well, suppose it’s the other way around: What if a woman in a lesbian relationship had sex with a man? Shouldn’t that be exactly the same thing? Sex is sex, regardless of gender. It doesn’t have to mean that same-sex encounters don’t count. That’s certainly not why I think it’s different. IME (well, not EXPERIENCE, just knowing how men are), the reasons it’s often considered different is because so many straight men think girl/girl action is hot, and because a lot of people wouldn’t take it as personally. If I offer to make my SO a lovely steak dinner (in this hypothetical I know how to make steak and take pride in my steak cooking skills) and he says no thanks and goes to Outback Steakhouse instead, I’d be hurt. If he says no thanks because he’s just not in the mood for steak tonight and goes out and gets Thai food, then okay, he just didn’t feel like steak right now. ---
**Author:** ![jackdavinci](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackdavinci/32/3259_2.png) [@jackdavinci](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jackdavinci)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-girl-exception-to-monogamy/676296/54 "2013-12-15T08:21:04Z")
There’s no automatic exception, but there’s no automatic inclusion either. The tenets of each relationship are up to that couple. For some couples, any sex is not cheating, it’s only cheating if feelings are involved. For some couples, there is a girl-girl, threesome, or celebrity exception. For some, revealing your face is considered adultery. I would say that in general, anything you do that you have to hide from your partner, or that you know would greatly upset them is something you shouldn’t be doing unless you plan on ending the relationship. I would also say that the idea is kind of sexist. How many straight couples have a male-male monogamy exception and consider that the norm? OTOH, something like kissing your platonic lady friends to show off at a bar is pretty harmless usually. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-girl-exception-to-monogamy/676296/55 "2013-12-15T14:18:20Z")
> [@LinusK](#): > > Yeah, it’s not logical, it’s psychological. As a guy, you don’t want to be unknowingly raising somebody else’s children. I mean, it’s kind of a dead end, from a evolution-genetics point of view. That sounds logical. As for me, I’m trying my hardest but honestly can’t manage to give a crap about some hypothetical where she’s fooling around with a woman – except to the extent that, as said upthread, I’d prefer _“watching”_ over _“not watching,”_ and _“participating”_ over _“not participating,”_ but, failing that – pfft, wouldn’t count. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-girl-exception-to-monogamy/676296/56 "2013-12-15T17:24:16Z")
Its not so much gaining a threesome as losing a marriage. Also, if the poll were limited strictly to divorce lawyers I wonder if there would be any disagreement at all. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-girl-exception-to-monogamy/676296/57 "2013-12-15T17:32:26Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > I’m very offended by this question. The implication is that same-sex encounters DON’T COUNT, that it’s just sort of playing around and isn’t real sex. Sorry you’re offended, but no, that’s not the implication. The fact that A bothers me less than B - or maybe even not at all - doesn’t make A ‘less real’; it just means that it bothers me less. How that’s your problem is something I don’t see. But it’s a free country; be offended if you like. > [@](#): > > Well, suppose it’s the other way around: What if a woman in a lesbian relationship had sex with a man? Shouldn’t that be exactly the same thing? I’d say that’s up to the lesbians in question. What they regard as infidelity is what matters, not what I think of it. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-girl-exception-to-monogamy/676296/58 "2013-12-15T17:34:38Z")
> [@jackdavinci](#): > > There’s no automatic exception, but there’s no automatic inclusion either. Sure there is. Without any other context or conversation, “monogamy” means one sexual partner at a time. By definition it would exclude any sexual partners, male or female, outside the relationship. Now, if you want a looser definition that allows same-sex action or any other agreement, of course that’s fine, as long as all people in the relationship are aware of boundaries. But the default assumption is no sexual partners outside your own if your promise is to monogamy. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-girl-exception-to-monogamy/676296/59 "2013-12-15T17:58:25Z")
I will give the benefit of the doubt that some of the people who’d make the exception do so not because “it’s not real” or “yowza, girl-girl scene”, but because they sincerely feel the presence of someone else’s penis kicks it up another notch. But its effect is still a double standard in practice, and actual lesbian/bi people can’t be blamed for being skeptical and finding it annoying. One problem I have with the “exception” is that it would most often create an asymmetrical scope of toleration. So, she can get it on with other girls because F/F infidelity is OK; I, on the other hand, have no interest whatsoever in getting it on with ther _men_, but M/F infidelity IS wrong? (flip sexes and gender identities as appropriate to the specific couple) \*\* LinusK\*\*, looking at it again, maybe if you had included a third option to the effect of: “Depends on the terms and expectations of fidelity MUTUALLY agreed to by BOTH partners” or some such language that provides for allowing some people to say “this may be so for me, but I cannot speak for someone else”, I would suspect that a significant number of us “dumbasses” would have opted for that, had we the choice. _ **But** _, then again, as repeatedly mentioned, that would presuppose defining “monogamy” in a way that does not incorporate sexual exclusivity as _the default condition_. Which has not yet been generally adopted AFAIK. ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2013, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-girl-exception-to-monogamy/676296/60 "2013-12-15T17:59:17Z")
IMHO - If my wife has sex with another man - I have to wonder what I am not providing her that she needs - especially if she has been dishonest about the encounter in any way. If she has sex with another woman - its less about my failing and more about her ‘discovery’ of something else that enriches her life (or satisfies a curiousity, etc). All of that is fine with another man as well - assuming she has been honest with me and we have had time to talk it thru. Same goes for her if I were to have sex with another man or woman\* - Sex is just sex at times - its all about the honesty and communication and boundries in a relationship. \*I’m well aware that I and the ohter woman will suffer an immediate and painful death should this ever happen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-girl-exception-to-monogamy/676296.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-girl-exception-to-monogamy/676296.md?page=4)