# Girl Scouts: "Girls don't owe you a hug" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 23, 2017, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-scouts-girls-dont-owe-you-a-hug/802484 "2017-11-23T04:31:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-scouts-girls-dont-owe-you-a-hug/802484/81 "2017-11-25T15:48:12Z")
> [@Ramira](#): > > Shaking hands is perfectly acceptable in the maghreb. The Saudi-Salafi aversion is not Muslim, it is their aversion. Then I stand corrected, I was basing it on my experience and not a deep knowledge of world Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-scouts-girls-dont-owe-you-a-hug/802484/82 "2017-11-25T16:38:03Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > The new Americanized view of no physical contact without explicit consent is oppressive and overly paranoid to me… The vast majority of people like some physical contact and don’t want to feel like they are walking on eggshells all the time. > [@Shagnasty](#): > > I said nothing even remotely like that so I am not sure where you got that from. What I said was that I get lots of hugs and kisses and I almost always let other people initiate it. I don’t mind being hugged or kissed unless it is an inappropriate situation. Where I got it from is that you explicitly objected to this newfangled idea that you need explicit consent to touch people, and implicitly said that needing consent from people before you touch them makes you feel like you’re walking on eggshells. I quoted your exact statement above. The situation you described in the second quote above is completely irrelevant to ‘where I got it from’, because it doesn’t describe a situation where there is a lack of consent, and doesn’t seem to have anyone walking on eggshells. Why would you object to something that you already do and seem to think is reasonable to do as “oppressive”, and why would you feel like you’re walking on eggshells for people expecting you to do something you do anyway? > [@](#): > > It is fine if someone doesn’t want to do that but it isn’t sexual assault if both people are in agreement. I’m not sure why you’re telling me something that AFAIR no one has disagreed with in this thread (and certainly I haven’t). And I’m also not sure why you think that expecting “both people [to be] in agreement” about physical touching “is oppressive and overly paranoid” and leads people “to feel like they are walking on eggshells all the time”, but that’s what your earlier quote seems to say. You literally objected to needing explicit consent, then keep talking about situations where you have explicit consent, which doesn’t make a lot of sense. > [@](#): > > What people aren’t understanding is this is completely cultural and there is nothing sexual about it. Incidentally, claiming that something is ‘cultural’ is not a magic get out of jail free card. Child genital mutilation, slapping your wife around, owning slaves, beating the gay out of people, and a host of other bad actions are or have been ‘cultural’. (And note that I’m not saying that hugging people is equivalent to those, I’m using them to show that the idea of “it’s cultural” is not a functional defense for bad behavior). ---
**Author:** ![Rickymouse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/34f0e0/32.png) [@Rickymouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rickymouse)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-scouts-girls-dont-owe-you-a-hug/802484/83 "2017-11-25T16:45:56Z")
Just because you buy their girl scout cookies doesn’t mean you should get their personal cookies. I would never have thought that girls scouts should have been giving people hugs in the first place. Some people are huggy, I have never been comfortable with anyone hugging me. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-scouts-girls-dont-owe-you-a-hug/802484/84 "2017-11-25T16:57:37Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And now that I’ve seen the [actual Girl Scout Post](http://www.girlscouts.org/en/raising-girls/happy-and-healthy/happy/what-is-consent.html), I will pick it apart a bit. It does actually seem to be saying “Don’t tell your kids to hug their relatives.” > > That is adding baggage that is completely unnecessary. The good message is that the kid has the right to decline if they are uncomfortable. That is definitely something the kid needs to be taught. > > But this is saying you shouldn’t teach your kids in the first place that showing affection in these ways is appropriate. And, yes, I do see why people would object to that. > > I like the paraphrased messages you all keep saying. I agree with them. But they don’t seem to 100% align with what the Girl Scouts are saying. I do get those who interpret it as saying their traditions are wrong. > > The only reason I ever started hugging my grandpa was because I was told to. It would not have occurred to me otherwise. And I am very glad I was told to, because hugging him is something I so fondly remember. I never at any point felt forced to do it. That is like the least charitable possible reading of their statement. No one is saying you can’t teach very small children good-bye rituals–“say thank you” “go hug grandpa”. A much more reasonable interpretation is that once a girl is past that age–like, school-age–you say “Go say good-bye to grandpa” and let her take the lead on whether that’s a hug, a high-five, or a phrase. Scouts are not talking to parents of preschoolers. It’s an organization for fairly autonomous aged girls, not small children. ---
**Author:** ![FloatyGimpy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/floatygimpy/32/7750_2.png) [@FloatyGimpy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FloatyGimpy)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-scouts-girls-dont-owe-you-a-hug/802484/85 "2017-11-25T17:11:57Z")
When I first posted this, I thought that the title may be a bit too aggressive. Some of the replies have convinced me that it is not. Oddly, some people really do need to be told that they are not owed hugs by anyone who doesn’t want to hug. Times are (very, very slowly) changing. The days of girls being taught to “be nice” and “don’t cause a scene” when dealing with unwanted physical contact, are not as accepted as they once were. It’s very hard for some men to deal with but, fortunately, many progressive men see women as equals who shouldn’t be pawed over. These men are our best allies and greatly needed and appreciated. Women deal with it every day and it just gets so tiresome. Teaching young girls that it’s OK to say “no”, even to adults, is a step in the right direction. All of the people in the news being outted as harassers or predators is a really good thing. It’s bringing out into the open the fact that young girls and women have been taken advantage of for long enough and it just needs to stop. Let’s just get it all out in the open, acknowledge it, fix it, and move on. Hell even in the bible, if you rape someone, your punishment is you have to marry her because she’s damaged goods and no other man will take care of her now. If you make the choice to be offended at women striving for equality and try to pretend that it’s about calling all men sexual predators, that’s your choice. And that’s what it is, a choice. Fortunately for the rest of us (women _and_ men) you’re in the minority. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-scouts-girls-dont-owe-you-a-hug/802484/86 "2017-11-25T19:27:49Z")
> [@FloatyGimpy](#): > > It seems like such a simple, non-controversial message: Girls have the right to decide who gets to touch them. I mean that’s just common sense and one way to protect them against sexual abuse, right? So why is facebook full of people (mostly men) freaking out about how it’s “ridiculous” and “obviously a ‘libtard’ idea” and “that’s what’s wrong with the world these days” and blah blah blah… > > Is there anyone here who thinks that they have the right to touch little girls even when it’s unwanted?? 😕 Is there anyone here who thinks they have the right to touch _anyone_ (little girls, little boys, adult men and women) even when it’s unwanted? This, of course doesn’t count for doctors or any type of essential touching. The article is just about not hugging people who don’t want hugs. > > I’m confused why this is controversial. > > [http://www.kivitv.com/news/national/girl-scouts-put-out-warning-about-requiring-daughters-to-hug-relatives](http://www.kivitv.com/news/national/girl-scouts-put-out-warning-about-requiring-daughters-to-hug-relatives) Because for millenniums those who wish to abuse women will seek any means to legitimize their behavior. I have always considered myself lucky that in my culture men touching women who are not their wives or blood relatives is not allowed (i.e., if it occurs the man is considered to have made a serious insult that will frequently be answered with violence). It cuts down on most prevy family acquaintances trying to groom little girls for victimization. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-scouts-girls-dont-owe-you-a-hug/802484/87 "2017-11-25T19:36:31Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > This. > And this. Not getting why there should be a ‘maybe’ about handshakes, though. They’re simple politeness. Because it’s not simple politeness, if flesh is touching flesh. For some people any physical contact with someone of the opposite sex they are not married to is still an uncleanliness and a sin. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-scouts-girls-dont-owe-you-a-hug/802484/88 "2017-11-25T20:48:15Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What about hand shakes? Would anyone here tell kids they don’t need to shake hands with anyone if they don’t want to? I think at some level, there is a greeting protocol, and opting out is rude. I always offer to shake hands with children who are told to hug me. ---
**Author:** ![j666](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@j666](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j666)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-scouts-girls-dont-owe-you-a-hug/802484/89 "2017-11-25T21:00:04Z")
> [@Helena330](#): > > Oh, boohoo. > > The Girl Scouts aren’t even talking about sexualized contact. It’s about girls (and should be about boys, too) determining what happens with their own bodies. If they don’t want to hug, they shouldn’t be forced. Not because Uncle Jerry or even Aunt Jane might be some kind of perv, but because children have the right to control with whom they have physical contact for whatever reason. Creep factor, shyness, introversion, whatever. THEIR choice, not anyone else’s. Exceptions made for polite, brief handshakes _maybe_, and certain elderly relatives. Exactly, because it is their person, their choice. However, I will trade the elderly relative exemption for the handshakes, because that’s what handshakes are for. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-scouts-girls-dont-owe-you-a-hug/802484/90 "2017-11-25T21:00:28Z")
I had an opposite experience a couple months back, saying goodbye to my brother’s wife’s son who was around 7 years old. Apparently my brother and him do an elbow bump and he was about to do that with me when my brother remembered that I hate elbow bumps because sometimes people push too hard and it hurts my bones. So I said “your choices are a handshake, fistbump, or a hug.” He chose the hug. ---
**Author:** ![Anny\_Middon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/bc79bd/32.png) [@Anny\_Middon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anny_Middon)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-scouts-girls-dont-owe-you-a-hug/802484/91 "2017-11-25T21:38:33Z")
> [@nearwildheaven](#): > > Most of the backlash I’ve seen on Facebook has come from women who have said that kids should do what their elders tell them, no questions asked. :rolleyes: So they make their young daughter kiss her dead grandmother and years later she’s a shy retiring housewife part of the time and a sexpot single nightclubber part of the time. Then at last she sometimes becomes a sensible woman who doesn’t remember anything about the other two and is cured. Joane Woodward got an Academy Award, the movie studio made a bazillion dollars, and Chris Sizemore got a whopping $7000 for the rights to her life story. OK, the “kiss your dead grandma” bit was the theatrical way of portraying the trauma Ms. Sizemore experienced. ---
**Author:** ![Helena330](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/helena330/32/531_2.png) [@Helena330](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helena330)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2017, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-scouts-girls-dont-owe-you-a-hug/802484/92 "2017-11-25T21:39:06Z")
_Yes,_ even handshakes. Children can be taught about handshakes and about how they can be polite and professional. However, if a child doesn’t want to shake someone’s hand, there could be a reason. I had an “uncle” (some distant cousin) who would shake my hand and hold it and look at me for MUCH too long. But it was just a handshake! I was very uncomfortable around him all the time as a result. Even handshakes. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2017, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-scouts-girls-dont-owe-you-a-hug/802484/93 "2017-11-26T00:04:55Z")
You could always offer them money, like my grandfather did. I loved my grandfather, but I never wanted to kiss him goodbye, because he had a really scratchy beard. So he started offering me a buck. Heh. (My mother made him stop though when I asked my OTHER grandfather for money after he kissed me goodbye) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girl-scouts-girls-dont-owe-you-a-hug/802484.md?page=4)