# Girlfriends and porn **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 24, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girlfriends-and-porn/544398 "2010-06-24T19:31:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girlfriends-and-porn/544398/141 "2010-06-30T00:01:57Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > An awful lot of male-oriented porn revolves around close-ups of body parts, which do nothing for me (whether they’re male or female body parts). I’d usually get a lot more out of it if they’d just pull the camera back a few feet. It could be worse, at least they aren’t using Shaky-cam. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girlfriends-and-porn/544398/142 "2010-06-30T00:02:23Z")
> [@malkavia](#): > > If your answer is “That’s different!”, please explain why. Because it’s not the same? Seriously, your idea is utterly without merit. Most women don’t have a deep visceral need to have men jerk off to them anonymously. Most men have a deep visceral need to jerk off to porn if it’s available. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girlfriends-and-porn/544398/143 "2010-06-30T00:08:31Z")
> [@malkavia](#): > > I have a somewhat-related question for men who believe that women should accept that men are visual creatures just doing what hundreds of thousands of years of biology have hard-wired them for. > > If men are hard-wired to be visual creatures, then it would make sense that women would be hard-wired to enjoy being looked at, right? So men, would you accept your girlfriends/wives putting up amateur videos of themselves engaging in titillating behaviors (i.e. having a wank or dancing or whatever floats their boat but doesn’t involve physically cheating with another person) for public consumption? > > If your answer is “That’s different!”, please explain why. Because I want to be the only one looking at my SO doing that kind of thing? Because I don’t want to share? Your question makes no sense at all. Next you’ll be asking “Well if you want to have sex with your girlfriend, why aren’t you OK with your girlfriend having sex with other people?” ---
**Author:** ![malkavia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malkavia/32/5621_2.png) [@malkavia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malkavia)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girlfriends-and-porn/544398/144 "2010-06-30T01:53:21Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Most women don’t have a deep visceral need to have men jerk off to them anonymously. Most men have a deep visceral need to jerk off to porn if it’s available. I do not believe that men have a visceral need for porn. It’s not as though photography and video have existed forever. And if it was drawings before that, then why not look for some classy naked sketches and wank to that? I do believe that men (and women) have a deeply instilled need to masturbate. You’ll hear no argument from me there, but I’m highly skeptical that porn is some must-have item that men will simply wilt and die if removed from their lives. That’s silly. Additionally, I cannot speak for all women but I very much enjoy being looked at. I’m happy to keep my exhibitionism between my partner and myself, but I definitely have regular fantasies involving being the object of desire for a number of men (and sometimes women). My best guess is that I’m far from alone in this. > [@AClockworkMelon](#): > > Because I want to be the only one looking at my SO doing that kind of thing? Because I don’t want to share? Your question makes no sense at all. Right. And the woman in the OP’s story doesn’t want to share her boyfriend. She wants to be the only woman he’s looking at. How is that so different? > [@](#): > > Next you’ll be asking “Well if you want to have sex with your girlfriend, why aren’t you OK with your girlfriend having sex with other people?” A more analogous statement might be, “Well, if you want to have sex with real or amateur porn stars, why can’t your girlfriend become a porn star?” And to be clear, I do not have a dog in this fight. I quite enjoy porn, was just curious if there was a bit of a double standard and why. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girlfriends-and-porn/544398/145 "2010-06-30T02:10:22Z")
> [@malkavia](#): > > I do not believe that men have a visceral need for porn. It’s not as though photography and video have existed forever. And if it was drawings before that, then why not look for some classy naked sketches and wank to that? I do believe that men (and women) have a deeply instilled need to masturbate. You’ll hear no argument from me there, but I’m highly skeptical that porn is some must-have item that men will simply wilt and die if removed from their lives. That’s silly. No, your denial of reality is silly. As long as porn has existed it has been highly sought after. From filthy etchings to Japanese bestiality scrolls. Also, men have (in general) more of a need to masturbate than women. Specific individuals can vary of course, but men (in general) have far, far greater needs in this area. To deny it is delusional. > [@](#): > > Additionally, I cannot speak for all women but I very much enjoy being looked at. I’m happy to keep my exhibitionism between my partner and myself, but I definitely have regular fantasies involving being the object of desire for a number of men (and sometimes women). My best guess is that I’m far from alone in this. I don’t care what your kinks are. They aren’t remotely interesting or germane to the topic. You are completely and utterly wrong if you think that women in general have an contrasting and exactly equal desire to be a visual sex object as men have to utilize visual sex objects. > [@](#): > > Right. And the woman in the OP’s story doesn’t want to share her boyfriend. She wants to be the only woman he’s looking at. How is that so different? The OP isn’t showing his wang to other women. I do believe the concepts have been reduced to the ultimate in simplicity here. I don’t know how to explain it further without resorting to Ikea-like diagrams. > [@](#): > > A more analogous statement might be, “Well, if you want to have sex with real or amateur porn stars, why can’t your girlfriend become a porn star?” > > And to be clear, I do not have a dog in this fight. I quite enjoy porn, was just curious if there was a bit of a double standard and why. You do have a dog in the fight, in that you want to post bizarre theories that have no basis in reality to support your personal biases. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girlfriends-and-porn/544398/146 "2010-06-30T02:28:33Z")
I don’t know exactly why **malkavia** ’s hit a nerve here. I think, at this point in the conversation, it’s an interesting question. If you want me (and **Bricker** ) to believe that porn is made by healthy, sexually outgoing eager beavers _snerk_ and that there’s nothing to be ashamed of as a producer or consumer of porn, they why is it an automatic “Woah—that’s a totally different topic!” when asked if you’d be okay with your girlfriend doing it? Reeks of a madonna/whore complex to me, and it makes it sound like you’re not so entirely certain that Nice Girls Do Porn. And, to relate it to the OP, here’s a sexual situation which you are as opposed to as the girlfriend of the OP is his watching porn. Why is this hypothetical girlfriend’s desire to do porn, regardless of your feelings, any different than the OP’s desire to watch porn, regardless of his not hypothetical girlfriend’s feelings? ---
**Author:** ![malkavia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malkavia/32/5621_2.png) [@malkavia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malkavia)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girlfriends-and-porn/544398/147 "2010-06-30T02:38:41Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Also, men have (in general) more of a need to masturbate than women. Specific individuals can vary of course, but men (in general) have far, far greater needs in this area. To deny it is delusional. This just blows my mind. I mean, I guess it _could_ be true, but I’m pretty convinced that everyone (regardless of gender) who can reach orgasm via masturbation does so. Why wouldn’t they? > [@](#): > > I don’t care what your kinks are. They aren’t remotely interesting or germane to the topic. True! But my point was that I believe that women DO enjoy being looked at. Why the hell else would we wear high heels and makeup? Now perhaps that doesn’t always translate to “Hey, watch me be naked!” but it might. Again, I cannot speak for all women, just as you cannot state that all men require pornography. > [@](#): > > You are completely and utterly wrong if you think that women in general have an contrasting and exactly equal desire to be a visual sex object as men have to utilize visual sex objects. Whew, well thanks for clearing that one up for me. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > The OP isn’t showing his wang to other women. Again, why is looking at a stranger SO different from being looked at by a stranger? Aren’t voyeurism and exhibitionism two sides of the same coin? > [@](#): > > I do believe the concepts have been reduced to the ultimate in simplicity here. I don’t know how to explain it further without resorting to Ikea-like diagrams. > … > You do have a dog in the fight, in that you want to post bizarre theories that have no basis in reality \ Now you’re just being mean. > [@](#): > > …to support your personal biases. What biases are these? I watch porn, for chrissakes. But if my boyfriend sat me down tomorrow and said, “Baby, I’m just not comfortable with you looking at some other guy’s penis as a means to get off.” I would feel really weird about telling him “Hey, it’s no big deal. They’re only pictures.. it means nothing. NOTHING! But hey, don’t let me find your penis online because THATS WRONG!” ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girlfriends-and-porn/544398/148 "2010-06-30T02:41:43Z")
> [@WhyNot](#): > > I don’t know exactly why **malkavia** ’s hit a nerve here. I think, at this point in the conversation, it’s an interesting question. It hits a nerve because it’s a forum that is designed to fight ignorance, not wallow in it. > [@](#): > > If you want me (and **Bricker** ) to believe that porn is made by healthy, sexually outgoing eager beavers _snerk_ and that there’s nothing to be ashamed of as a producer or consumer of porn, they why is it an automatic “Woah—that’s a totally different topic!” when asked if you’d be okay with your girlfriend doing it? That’s a change of subject. The girls in porn, to the man jerking off to porn, isn’t a person. She’s a bunch of visual stimuli that are used to latch onto a fantasy that makes masturbation more pleasurable. So the moral or emotional well being of the women on the other end of the lens is not an issue that is necessary to tie into a discussion about men liking porn. As for my girlfriend doing porn, no one who even wastes a tenth of a second thinking about it can seriously think it’s the same thing. Honestly, it’s nearly too silly to bother rebutting. But, to go through the motions, most people don’t like their partners having sex with others. A man masturbating to porn is not forming a connection. He’s engaging in a wang-oriented thought experiment. A woman appearing in Ebony-Gang-Bang-Gape-a-palooza is forming a connection. Possibly as many as five connections at once. 😃 > [@](#): > > Reeks of a madonna/whore complex to me, and it makes it sound like you’re not so entirely certain that Nice Girls Do Porn. Only if you want to think that way. There are certainly basket cases that do porn. There are also perfectly fine women. My not wanting my wife to do it has nothing to do with the suitability of porn for masturbation. > [@](#): > > And, to relate it to the OP, here’s a sexual situation which you are as opposed to as the girlfriend of the OP is his watching porn. Why is this hypothetical girlfriend’s desire to do porn, regardless of your feelings, any different than the OP’s desire to watch porn, regardless of his not hypothetical girlfriend’s feelings? Again, it’s amazing that I need to explain this to you, but I’ll try. Solo masturbation with a porn video isn’t the same thing as sex with other men watching or participating. Isn’t that a simple concept? ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girlfriends-and-porn/544398/149 "2010-06-30T02:53:15Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Solo masturbation with a porn video isn’t the same thing as sex with other men watching or participating. Isn’t that a simple concept? Since what \*\*malkavia \*\*proposed was a solo endeavor, no, I still don’t get it. > [@](#): > > amateur videos of themselves engaging in titillating behaviors (i.e. having a wank or dancing or whatever floats their boat but doesn’t involve physically cheating with another person) What’s this “connection” you’re speaking of? The men masturbating to her image? They’re just viewing her as, what was it again, “a bunch of visual stimuli that are used to latch onto a fantasy that makes masturbation more pleasurable,” and “not a person”. ---
**Author:** ![AClockworkMelon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aclockworkmelon/32/10803_2.png) [@AClockworkMelon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AClockworkMelon)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girlfriends-and-porn/544398/150 "2010-06-30T02:56:16Z")
> [@malkavia](#): > > I quite enjoy porn, was just curious if there was a bit of a double standard and why. There is no double standard. It’d be a double standard if I had a problem with my girlfriends watching porn, which I don’t. ---
**Author:** ![malkavia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malkavia/32/5621_2.png) [@malkavia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malkavia)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girlfriends-and-porn/544398/151 "2010-06-30T02:58:18Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Honestly, it’s nearly too silly to bother rebutting. But, to go through the motions, most people don’t like their partners having sex with others. A man masturbating to porn is not forming a connection. He’s engaging in a wang-oriented thought experiment. A woman appearing in Ebony-Gang-Bang-Gape-a-palooza is forming a connection. Possibly as many as five connections at once. 😃 Oh my god, no wonder you think I’m eating crazy biscuits! I certainly didn’t mean for her to post herself having sex with other men! I was thinking more along the line of sexy pictures or a video of her masturbating. Obviously, there wouldn’t be other people involved. That would actually be cheating and is a WHOLE 'nother topic, not even loosely related to where I was going with this. Also, the last line in your quote made me snicker. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girlfriends-and-porn/544398/152 "2010-06-30T03:05:13Z")
> [@malkavia](#): > > This just blows my mind. I mean, I guess it _could_ be true, but I’m pretty convinced that everyone (regardless of gender) who can reach orgasm via masturbation does so. Why wouldn’t they? Because in general mean and women aren’t the same. We have differing biologies and have evolved in different ways. From: [Sex Drive: How Do Men and Women Compare?](http://www.webmd.com/sex/features/sex-drive-how-do-men-women-compare) > [@](#): > > Well, yes, they do. Study after study illustrates that men’s sex drives are not only stronger than women’s, but much more straightforward. The sources of women’s libidos, by contrast, are much more difficult to pin down. > > –snip– > > 1. Men think more about sex. > The majority of adult men under 60 think about sex at least once a day, reports Laumann. Only about one-quarter of women report this level of frequency. As men and women age, each fantasize less, but men still fantasize about twice as often. > > In a comprehensive survey of studies comparing male and female sex drives, Roy Baumeister, a social psychologist at Florida State University, found that men reported more spontaneous sexual arousal and had more frequent and varied fantasies. > > –snip– > > 1. Men seek sex more avidly. > “Men want sex more often than women at the start of a relationship, in the middle of it, and after many years of it,” Baumeister concludes after reviewing several surveys of men and women. This isn’t just true of heterosexuals, he reports: gay men also have higher frequency of sex than lesbians at all stages of the relationship. Men also say they want more sex partners in their lifetime, and are more interested in casual sex. > > Men are more likely to seek sex even when it is frowned upon or even outlawed: > > About two-thirds say they masturbate, even though about half also say they feel guilty about it, Laumann says. By contrast, about 40% of women say they masturbate, and the frequency of masturbation is smaller among women. > > Prostitution is still mostly a phenomenon of men seeking sex with women, rather than the other way around. > > Nuns do a better job of fulfilling their vows of chastity than priests. Baumeister cites a survey of several hundred clergy by Sheila Murphy in which 62% of priests admitted to sexual activity, compared to 49% of nuns. The men reported more partners on average than the women. > [@](#): > > True! But my point was that I believe that women DO enjoy being looked at. Why the hell else would we wear high heels and makeup? Now perhaps that doesn’t always translate to “Hey, watch me be naked!” but it might. Again, I cannot speak for all women, just as you cannot state that all men require pornography. > > Whew, well thanks for clearing that one up for me. :rolleyes: > > Again, why is looking at a stranger SO different from being looked at by a stranger? Aren’t voyeurism and exhibitionism two sides of the same coin? When you look at a video you aren’t making a connection with another human being. You’re utterly in fantasy. When you’re slamming a dildo at a peep-show for a drooling trucker, you are making a connection. It isn’t really the same. One involves one person, one involves two people. As for distributing videos in the intarweb, I would still have a problem with that, in that my perfectly natural sense of jealously doesn’t like the idea of other dudes beating it to my wife. I understand that I watch things I wouldn’t want my wife distributing, but I assume the women who make porn are in relationships where that isn’t an issue. I don’t have a problem with my wife \*watching \*porn, although she would probably prefer watching Daniel Craig glisten in Casino Royale. 😃 > [@](#): > > Now you’re just being mean. True. Mah bad. > [@](#): > > What biases are these? I watch porn, for chrissakes. But if my boyfriend sat me down tomorrow and said, “Baby, I’m just not comfortable with you looking at some other guy’s penis as a means to get off.” I would feel really weird about telling him > “Hey, it’s no big deal. They’re only pictures.. it means nothing. NOTHING! But hey, don’t let me find your penis online because THATS WRONG!” I would again have a problem with my wife appearing on distributed porn, even solo, because I’m in a relationship with her, and my monkey-brain finds that scarcity increases value. If every Thom’s Hairy Dick is squirting to her, it makes me want to hurl a spear at a Buffalo. The analogous situation is the woman watching porn, which I have no problem with. Actually performing is something I would have a problem with, and that’s probably not far out of the norm. ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girlfriends-and-porn/544398/153 "2010-06-30T03:06:28Z")
> [@malkavia](#): > > Oh my god, no wonder you think I’m eating crazy biscuits! I certainly didn’t mean for her to post herself having sex with other men! I was thinking more along the line of sexy pictures or a video of her masturbating. Obviously, there wouldn’t be other people involved. That would actually be cheating and is a WHOLE 'nother topic, not even loosely related to where I was going with this. > > Also, the last line in your quote made me snicker. 🙂 I was actually thinking you meant exotic dancing, like actually at a club. The more I think about that the cooler it seems however. The video still seems like it’s crossing a line, but I can see an argument for it. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girlfriends-and-porn/544398/154 "2010-06-30T03:13:49Z")
> [@Ellen\_Cherry](#): > > **Big T** — please remember our “two-click rule” and to label any not-safe-for-work links. > > Thanks > Ellen I’m sorry. Since I didn’t post it for the images, I totally forgot. ---
**Author:** ![malkavia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/malkavia/32/5621_2.png) [@malkavia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malkavia)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girlfriends-and-porn/544398/155 "2010-06-30T03:23:38Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Because in general mean and women aren’t the same. We have differing biologies and have evolved in different ways. > > From: [Sex Drive: How Do Men and Women Compare?](http://www.webmd.com/sex/features/sex-drive-how-do-men-women-compare) Okay, look. It’s not that I don’t appreciate you digging up this cite, but do you honestly believe that only 2/3 of men masturbate? I’d say 2/3 of men admit to masturbating, 1/3 of men lie about it. Similarly, I wouldn’t be surprised to find that women lie about not masturbating because it seems so unladylike and umm.. I don’t know, some other adjective that women don’t want to be associated with. Additionally, it seems like there are a lot more women who don’t reach orgasm through masturbation than there are men. If you’re not getting the payoff, why bother? But again, if you _can_ orgasm through masturbation, you probably do. I would also guess that fewer women admit to picking their nose and farting, but I would bet my life that the numbers for both range very near to the 100% mark. > [@](#): > > When you look at a video you aren’t making a connection with another human being. You’re utterly in fantasy. When you’re slamming a dildo at a peep-show for a drooling trucker, you are making a connection. It isn’t really the same. One involves one person, one involves two people. Yeah, not the same thing I was thinking of at all. The OP isn’t going to peep shows to watch real life women stabbing their junk with a dildo, as far as I can tell. Just lookin’ at a little internet porn. > [@](#): > > As for distributing videos in the intarweb, I would still have a problem with that, in that my perfectly natural sense of jealously doesn’t like the idea of other dudes beating it to my wife. Just as she might not like the idea of you beatin’ it to other women? > [@](#): > > If every Thom’s Hairy Dick is squirting to her, it makes me want to hurl a spear at a Buffalo. A half hour ago I thought you were a real jerk, but now I like you. I lol’d. > [@](#): > > The analogous situation is the woman watching porn, which I have no problem with. I would agree that would be analogous except that women don’t seem to be saddled with “visual creature” albatross that men are. And really, have you SEEN the men in porn? It’s really not the same thing at all. Being looked at in high heels and a smile has GOT to be more exciting than staring at some dude’s hairy asscrack on YouPorn. > [@](#): > > Actually performing is something I would have a problem with, and that’s probably not far out of the norm. To be fair, I don’t think you’re out of the norm at all. I just definitely see a double standard when it comes to, “You have NO reason to feel jealous.” Clearly, the girlfriend has a reason to feel jealous. She has a monkey-brain too. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![JR\_Brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JR\_Brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JR_Brown)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girlfriends-and-porn/544398/156 "2010-06-30T03:31:04Z")
> [@BellRungBookShut-CandleSnuffed](#): > > Low-budget movies are usually bad. Poorly-written, look like crap, etc. Occasionally you get the rare gem that has a super script, and the production values either somehow add to or at least don’t detract from it. But those are rare. > > […] > So in essence, lack of money and good actors make a well-written, engaging porn near-impossible in a practical sense, and the fact that watching a good story and wanting a wank are separate things make it unrealistic in a philosophical context. Which is why I like comic books. You get pictures and it’s not dependent on finding a porn star who can act. But in thought-experiment land, a good movie with good sex in it would be best. And I personally wank with my eyes shut, so I’m running on memory and fantasy, not the visuals at-that-second. “Just pictures” are nice in their way, but story and relationship (even if it’s not a romantic relationship) make the fantasy more specific, stronger and hotter. > [@Lobohan](#): > > That’s a change of subject. The girls in porn, to the man jerking off to porn, isn’t a person. She’s a bunch of visual stimuli that are used to latch onto a fantasy that makes masturbation more pleasurable. So the moral or emotional well being of the women on the other end of the lens is not an issue that is necessary to tie into a discussion about men liking porn. This is, in fact, one of the things that make women unhappy with commercial porn. They are much more likely to think about the actors as people, about what they’re feeling and why they’re doing it. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girlfriends-and-porn/544398/157 "2010-06-30T06:06:45Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Linda Lovelace was, by all accounts, an enthusiastic participant in her various porn films, to include the classic _Deep Throat_. A watcher of that film would see a woman who apparently enjoyed the eponymous act, and argue that there was nothing wrong with the film. > > It was only later that we learn she was the victim of physical and mental abuse, and that her then-husband and manager desensitized her by, among other tactics, a gang rape. If you read the things that Linda Lovelace wrote, she was obviously the sort of sad individual who could have been easily manipulated into doing pretty much anything. Indeed, in her later years she stated that she felt more manipulated by anti-porn feminists than she had been by the porn industry. Hers is a tragic personal tale but it sheds little light on the porn world generally. There simply aren’t thousands of Linda Lovelaces going around claiming they were brutalised into the industry. Most of them are quite at pains to say the opposite. Why do you do so easily accept her testimony and discount theirs? ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girlfriends-and-porn/544398/158 "2010-06-30T13:49:04Z")
Because underneath it all, we should accept that it’s not normal for a woman to be either enthusiastic about sex or just merely ok with it. I wish it were surprising that it’s ok to assume that no woman in porn can make that choice with her eyes open and for her own reasons. Why is it still threatening for women to be voracious sexually? Why must they always be victimized by their participation in porn? Why must we always feel guilty for being consumers of porn? Why are some expressions of female sexuality ok and others are not? Why must we assume that women in porn cannot be self-possessed? And what’s worse is how often it is women who assume it’s abnormal for another woman to actively make the choice to do sex work of any kind. ---
**Author:** ![WhyNot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c77e96/32.png) [@WhyNot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WhyNot)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girlfriends-and-porn/544398/159 "2010-06-30T14:12:49Z")
> [@niblet\_head](#): > > I wish it were surprising that it’s ok to assume that no woman in porn can make that choice with her eyes open and for her own reasons. No, we’re just assuming we can’t know. When I don’t buy fair trade coffee, I do so knowing that people were probably exploited to get it to my supermarket. (So, I buy fair trade coffee.) When I buy clothes at a discount retailer, I know they were probably sewn by a 10 year old in China who can’t afford to quit her job and go to school. (So, I mostly buy not Made in China clothes from thrift stores.) When I buy an incandescent bulb instead of a CFL, I know I’m contributing more to the rape of the Earth to make my electricity. (So, except for a few unsuitable fixtures, my bulbs are CFLs.) When I watch commercial porn…I just don’t know. Undefined statistics I only half remember lead me to believe there’s \*some \*chance that the woman was coerced, abused, a Hollywood wannabe be who can’t get mainstream work and has been falsely convinced this will get her there, or a drug addict getting paid in crack. But I don’t know what that number is. I’m ready (eager!) to believe it’s far smaller then I assume, but I also don’t feel like I can take their word for it, even if I met them in person. I know a lot of people who are pretty fucked up and won’t admit it. I’ve seen lots of people who were abused as children or are current drug addicts who make poor decisions (sexual and others) that they (much) later regret. (So I watch mostly free amateur porn, where the risks of these aren’t eliminated, but certainly reduced.) I don’t think I can eliminate my contribution to exploitation in this world. I’m just trying to minimize it. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girlfriends-and-porn/544398/160 "2010-06-30T14:27:17Z")
Of course you can know. Ever heard of Susie Bright? Jenna Jameson? How about this snippet from the Toys in Babeland site: > [@Toys in Babeland](#): > > (Looking for) Women Directed Porn? The good news is that more and more women are directing porn these days. Shine Louise Houston is the latest contendor, specializing in lesbian porn. Sex educator extraordinaire Tristan Taormino is producing some of the hottest porn on the market featuring professional porn stars, and pioneer Candida Royalle continues to produce quality films. Do you think these women are going to exploit their actors? Do you think that if they knew that their female actors were being hurt by participating that they would use them? Do you think that these women are so gobsmacked by the patriarchy that they buy into their own victimization? There are porn producers and directors who work hard to make sure their actors are making a positive choice to participate. You could do some research on it yourself and realize that’s true. OR you could just assume that it’s not possible to make good choices about the porn you consume. And, tacitly, you could make judgements about the carelessness of other porn consumers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girlfriends-and-porn/544398.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girlfriends-and-porn/544398.md?page=9)