# "Girls become women by growing older; boys become men by accomplishing something." **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 30, 2013, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844 "2013-01-30T22:46:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/1 "2013-01-30T22:46:39Z")
[_The Daily Show 01/28/13_](http://www.thedailyshow.com/full-episodes/mon-january-28-2013-bob-costas) – segment on the Pentagon’s decision to allow women in combat. Samantha Bee is interviewing Kingsley Browne (author of [_Co-Ed Combat: The New Evidence that Women Shouldn’t Fight the Nation’s Wars_](http://www.amazon.com/Co-ed-Combat-Evidence-Shouldnt-Nations/dp/B001G7R9EG/ref=ntt_at_ep_dpt_1)), and he tosses off the above quote quite matter-of-factly at the 9:04 mark. Had that been said anywhere in America in, say, 1965, even the women in the room would have nodded without hesitation. But feminism has changed our society a lot – I’m just wondering how many people share that belief any more. ---
**Author:** ![Sattua](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sattua/32/11906_2.png) [@Sattua](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sattua)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/2 "2013-01-30T22:48:44Z")
Unfortunately, I still think there are a lot of women who would be happy to be called girls, and no men who want to be called boys. ---
**Author:** ![chiroptera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@chiroptera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chiroptera)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/3 "2013-01-30T23:11:12Z")
That quote made my hackles go up, even without watching the video and getting any context I want to slap this Kingsley Browne person upside the head. I’m female. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/4 "2013-01-30T23:28:07Z")
> [@chiroptera](#): > > That quote made my hackles go up, even without watching the video and getting any context I want to slap this Kingsley Browne person upside the head. > I’m female. Samantha Bee’s response to it: “Have you ever actually met any women?” Browne: “Yes, several.” Bee: “Any woman who didn’t want to strangle you?” ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/5 "2013-01-30T23:28:52Z")
> [@chiroptera](#): > > That quote made my hackles go up, even without watching the video and getting any context I want to slap this Kingsley Browne person upside the head. It might be worth finding out if he was expressing his own opinion, or commenting about societal attitudes. ---
**Author:** ![chiroptera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@chiroptera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chiroptera)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/6 "2013-01-30T23:29:52Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Samantha Bee’s response to it: “Have you ever actually met any women?” > > Browne: “Yes, several.” > > Bee: “Any woman who didn’t want to strangle you?” Ha! I suppose I ought to watch the video. ---
**Author:** ![chiroptera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@chiroptera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chiroptera)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/7 "2013-01-30T23:30:52Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > It might be worth finding out if he was expressing his own opinion, or commenting about societal attitudes. True, and see my other comment. Off to watch the video now. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/8 "2013-01-30T23:32:01Z")
> [@](#): > > “Girls become women by growing older; boys become men by accomplishing something.” That’s still a common attitude in my opinion. Women get the respect of an adult just by reaching adulthood; men have to prove their worth or be considered immature or outright vermin. As it happens I just recently re-read an old American Psychological Association article named "Is _There Anything Good About Men?"_ that was linked to on the SDMB a while back that touched on this. [QUOTE=Roy F. Baumeister] The phrase “Be a man” is not as common as it once was, but there is still some sense that manhood must be earned. Every adult female is a woman and is entitled to respect as such, but many cultures withhold respect from the males until and unless the lads prove themselves. This is of course tremendously useful for the culture, because it can set the terms by which males earn respect as men, and in that way it can motivate the men to do things that the culture finds productive. ``` Some sociological writings about the male role have emphasized that to be a man, you have to produce more than you consume. That is, men are expected, first, to provide for themselves: If somebody else provides for you, you’re less than a man. Second, the man should create some additional wealth or surplus value so that it can provide for others in addition to himself. These can be his wife and children, or others who depend on him, or his subordinates, or even perhaps just paying taxes that the government can use. Regardless, you’re not a man unless you produce at that level. Again, I’m not saying men have it worse than women. There are plenty of problems and disadvantages that cultures put on women. My point is just that cultures find men useful in these very specific ways. Requiring the man to earn respect by producing wealth and value that can support himself and others is one of these. Women do not face this particular challenge or requirement. These demands also contribute to various male behavior patterns. The ambition, competition, and striving for greatness may well be linked to this requirement to fight for respect. All-male groups tend to be marked by putdowns and other practices that remind everybody that there is NOT enough respect to go around, because this awareness motivates each man to try harder to earn respect. This, incidentally, has probably been a major source of friction as women have moved into the workplace, and organizations have had to shift toward policies that everyone is entitled to respect. The men hadn’t originally built them to respect everybody. One of the basic, most widely accepted gender differences is agency versus communion. Male agency may be partly an adaptation to this kind of social life based on larger groups, where people aren’t necessarily valued and one has to strive for respect. To succeed in the male social sphere of large groups, you need an active, agentic self to fight for your place, because it isn’t given to you and only a few will be successful. Even the male ego, with its concern with proving oneself and competing against others, seems likely to be designed to cope with systems where there is a shortage of respect and you have to work hard to get some — or else you’ll be exposed to humiliation. ``` [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/9 "2013-01-30T23:45:02Z")
I think the statement still holds a lot of truth; cultures change slowly. Not saying that I like it, mind you, just that I think it’s still a valid point. However, **Kingsley Browne** seems to have written _The Bell Curve For Gender_ several times over. I’d be a lot likelier to buy the concept for this book (regarding women in combat) if he hadn’t already claimed that the little ladies aren’t really qualified for the workplace so naturally they shouldn’t expect equal treatment. I’ll see if the library has any of them. And if I can manage to read them. ---
**Author:** ![chiroptera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@chiroptera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chiroptera)\ **Post date:** [January 30, 2013, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/10 "2013-01-30T23:51:25Z")
> [@chiroptera](#): > > True, and see my other comment. Off to watch the video now. OK. Watched that segment. Kingsley Browne is an anachronistic, backwards, misogynistic, crusty old fart. I am not disputing that there are women who enjoy the helpless little girl/little woman/good wifey/depend on teh man role. Unfortunately, and shame on them - women like that deserve all the scorn and infantilization they get. However there are many strong, self-actualized and independent women who are actually capable of serving in combat, taking out the trash, driving a vehicle and changing light bulbs. :rolleyes: > [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Samantha Bee’s response to it: “Have you ever actually met any women?” > > Browne: “Yes, several.” > > Bee: “Any woman who didn’t want to strangle you?” Watch how he blinks maniacally and repeatedly at that question, then mumbles. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/11 "2013-01-31T00:07:26Z")
That was a great interview. And it shows what is wrong with American journalism by contrast. The old fashioned dude looked like he had been hit upside the head by a two by four and was shocked that he was called on his bullshit. This would never happen on a real news program. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/12 "2013-01-31T00:47:31Z")
> [@chiroptera](#): > > That quote made my hackles go up, even without watching the video and getting any context I want to slap this Kingsley Browne person upside the head. > I’m female. Ditto. I want to go yell “Seriously? How stupid are you?” at someone now. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/13 "2013-01-31T00:53:33Z")
Even without Samantha Bee’s zinger it’s not good for him. I mean, really: > [@](#): > > Samantha Bee’s response to it: “Have you ever actually met any women?” > > Browne: “Yes, several.” Out of a group that comprises half the human race, you’ve met…several. How very outgoing. Having fun in that monastery? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 1:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/14 "2013-01-31T01:20:42Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Even without Samantha Bee’s zinger it’s not good for him. I mean, really: > > Out of a group that comprises half the human race, you’ve met…several. How very outgoing. Having fun in that monastery? Actually, I took that as “ironic understatement.” ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/15 "2013-01-31T01:49:17Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Samantha Bee’s response to it: “Have you ever actually met any women?” > > Browne: “Yes, several.” > > Bee: “Any woman who didn’t want to strangle you?” I loved that. Also, the soldier in that interview was awesome. To the idea in the OP - 50 years ago, it would have been more accurate to say “girls become women by getting married and giving birth,” just getting older wasn’t enough - or at least not until they were very old. Women who hadn’t done the former were still expected to be in their parents’ house and weren’t really “grown up.” Women who hadn’t done the latter weren’t considered real adults, yet, though they were on the road. Women who did those things out of the expected order were the downfall of society. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/16 "2013-01-31T02:10:06Z")
> [@chiroptera](#): > > That quote made my hackles go up, even without watching the video and getting any context I want to slap this Kingsley Browne person upside the head. > I’m female. Of course the opinion he stated is offensive – but that is his First Amandment right. Can anyone imagine what would if a man threatened a woman (even a male basher) with violence? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/17 "2013-01-31T02:33:24Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Of course the opinion he stated is offensive – but that is his First Amandment right. > > Can anyone imagine what would if a man threatened a woman (even a male basher) with violence? Remind me… are men far more often assaulted, abused and killed by women, or is it the other way around? ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/18 "2013-01-31T02:36:50Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > Remind me… are men far more often assaulted, abused and killed by women, or is it the other way around? Children are mostly assaulted, abused and killed by women, while adults of either sex are mostly assaulted, abused and killed by men. Nevertheless threatening violence against anyone should be unacceptable. ---
**Author:** ![chiroptera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@chiroptera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chiroptera)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/19 "2013-01-31T02:37:09Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Of course the opinion he stated is offensive – but that is his First Amandment right. > > Can anyone imagine what would if a man threatened a woman (even a male basher) with violence? The “first amendment right” is a complete fallacy. And you really ought to be ashamed of yourself for even bringing it up. Seriously. Check number n here: [http://www.cracked.com/funny-3809-internet-argument-techniques/](http://www.cracked.com/funny-3809-internet-argument-techniques/) B: Very carefully, think about scenario #2. Carefully and thoughtfully, now. This requires understanding of nuance: if you don’t have that, you won’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/20 "2013-01-31T02:40:01Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Children are mostly assaulted, abused and killed by women . . . Wouldn’t surprise me, but, still, cite? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844.md?page=2)