# "Girls become women by growing older; boys become men by accomplishing something." **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 30, 2013, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844 "2013-01-30T22:46:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/21 "2013-01-31T02:46:56Z")
> [@chiroptera](#): > > The “first amendment right” is a complete fallacy. And you really ought to be ashamed of yourself for even bringing it up. Seriously. I know that any one can be criticised for their opinions, but everyone should be protected from bullying, stalking, and threats of violence. The fact that someone has stated an offensive opinion does not mean that they have less right not to be stalked/threatened. ---
**Author:** ![chiroptera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@chiroptera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chiroptera)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/22 "2013-01-31T02:55:37Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > I know that any one can be criticised for their opinions, but everyone should be protected from bullying, stalking, and threats of violence. The fact that someone has stated an offensive opinion does not mean that they have less right not to be stalked/threatened. No, not at all. This is a message board run by private individuals and they have complete authority to determine the rules here. You implicititely agreed to those rules when you signed up. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/23 "2013-01-31T02:59:53Z")
> [@chiroptera](#): > > No, not at all. This is a message board run by private individuals and they have complete authority to determine the rules here. You implicititely agreed to those rules when you signed up. Anyone may be banned from a forum for their opinion. But if someone is seriously stalked or recieves serious threats of violence for their opinion, they have a right to legal protection – their unpopular opinion does not mitigate stalking in any way. ---
**Author:** ![chiroptera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@chiroptera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chiroptera)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/24 "2013-01-31T03:04:21Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Anyone may be banned from a forum for their opinion. But if someone is seriously stalked or recieves serious threats of violence for their opinion, they have a right to legal protection – their unpopular opinion does not mitigate stalking in any way. Cool. Invoke those rights and report back on their effectiveness. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/25 "2013-01-31T03:06:24Z")
> [@chiroptera](#): > > Cool. Invoke those rights and report back on their effectiveness. I have never been stalked for my opinions. But even someone who expresses the most offensive opinion is still protected from stalkers. There is nothing you can do to punish people for saying something you do not like. You can insult them but they can insult back. ---
**Author:** ![chiroptera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@chiroptera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chiroptera)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/26 "2013-01-31T03:09:12Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > I have never been stalked for my opinions. But even someone who expresses the most offensive opinion is still protected from stalkers. OK. Great. Glad the system is working out for you. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/27 "2013-01-31T03:45:33Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Anyone may be banned from a forum for their opinion. But if someone is seriously stalked or recieves serious threats of violence for their opinion, they have a right to legal protection – their unpopular opinion does not mitigate stalking in any way. OK, well there’s your answer right there. Chiroptera is not seriously intending to slap anyone upside the head. You should check out the BBQ Pit sometime … ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/28 "2013-01-31T03:47:01Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > [QUOTE=CCitizen] > > Children are mostly assaulted, abused and killed by women . . . Wouldn’t surprise me, but, still, cite? [/QUOTE] [Here’s](http://goodmenproject.com/newsroom/are-mothers-really-more-likely-to-kill-their-children/) an article that talks about it. The way I’ve heard it, mothers are more likely to torture or kill their children, fathers are more likely to molest them. As an aside, an interesting statistic I [came across](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_murder) while searching: > [@](#): > > In 2008, there were 1,494 child (under 18 years) homicides in the United States. Of those killed 1,035 were male, while 453 were female. Interesting that even as children, males are more likely to be killed. ---
**Author:** ![drew870mitchell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drew870mitchell/32/3946_2.png) [@drew870mitchell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drew870mitchell)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/29 "2013-01-31T03:48:18Z")
I actually watched this with my girl roommate. (ATTENTION EVERYBODY: I have a roommate who is a girl. I get to watch television with her.) We both expressed nothing less than disgust at the idea. **Der Trihs** quotes a good article that I’ve read a couple times over and thought hard about before. The mindset quoted in OP can arguably be said to be harmful to everybody - people of both genders; people who do or don’t challenge gender norms. I’m not convinced that that is what Kingsley Brown was getting at. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/30 "2013-01-31T06:32:05Z")
Oh yay. No thread can be complete without a thread-crasher who (claims to) have no understanding of hyperbole. Death to literacy, y’all. Does no one remember English class? Sigh. ---
**Author:** ![Double\_Foolscap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/85e7bf/32.png) [@Double\_Foolscap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Double_Foolscap)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 9:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/31 "2013-01-31T09:30:09Z")
He’s just bringing the thread around to the _real_ issue of men not being respected by women in discussions about sexism. It’s just not ladylike to point out misogyny. I’m joking and can’t pick an appropriate emoticon oh god please don’t kill me. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 9:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/32 "2013-01-31T09:48:24Z")
It was way up there as far as memorable segments go. I would rank it alongside the quote that went something like “I know I’d rather die in a terrorist attack than suffer through an uncomfortable shower with a gay, you know what I’m saying?” and the old crusty fart nods and smiles. BUT, what he said does have some truth to it. Society does demand that men “grow up” and do something to be considered a man. The term “manchild” is never directed towards women, for example. I can’t think of a female equivalent. A woman can be immature, she can be a bitch, a cunt, etc, but she’s still a woman. A man, however, can be a child or a manchild. So there is a kernel of truth to what he was saying. But he didn’t qualify it with anything like, “this is how I see society,” it was just his own opinion. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/33 "2013-01-31T11:34:18Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > It was way up there as far as memorable segments go. I would rank it alongside the quote that went something like “I know I’d rather die in a terrorist attack than suffer through an uncomfortable shower with a gay, you know what I’m saying?” and the old crusty fart nods and smiles. > > BUT, what he said does have some truth to it. Society does demand that men “grow up” and do something to be considered a man. The term “manchild” is never directed towards women, for example. I can’t think of a female equivalent. A woman can be immature, she can be a bitch, a cunt, etc, but she’s still a woman. A man, however, can be a child or a manchild. So there is a kernel of truth to what he was saying. But he didn’t qualify it with anything like, “this is how I see society,” it was just his own opinion. It didn’t seem to me like he was making a comment on current societal expectations. He seemed to state it as if it was an inherent quality of men and women. And it doesn’t make sense for his argument. If true, it means women are more suited for combat than men because they are adults starting out, while men would still be children until they had actually accomplished something in battle. And all those men who have been sent out as fodder over the ages were nothing but children being sent to slaughter, and young girls should be able to serve in combat positions because they are as mature as older men who haven’t accomplished anything yet. ---
**Author:** ![chiroptera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@chiroptera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chiroptera)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/34 "2013-01-31T11:43:47Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > It didn’t seem to me like he was making a comment on current societal expectations. He seemed to state it as if it was an inherent quality of men and women. And it doesn’t make sense for his argument. If true, it means women are more suited for combat than men because they are adults starting out, while men would still be children until they had actually accomplished something in battle. And all those men who have been sent out as fodder over the ages were nothing but children being sent to slaughter, and young girls should be able to serve in combat positions because they are as mature as older men who haven’t accomplished anything yet. I didn’t think he was inferring that women were mature. Rather, that little was demanded of women except to become sex objects and baby machines. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/35 "2013-01-31T12:13:34Z")
> [@](#): > > Every adult female is a woman and is entitled to respect as such Women, even women in their 30s and older, are routinely referred to as girls, and what’s more, they’re expected to take this as a compliment. Women are regarded as not being fully adult, even if they are grandmas, by a great many men, and even by many women. Women are regarded as adults when they pass a certain age only in the respect that they are capable of consenting to have sex, get married, and possibly become mothers. They are not regarded as people who know their own desires, especially if they want to get an abortion or get sterilized. Now, not all people think this way about women. But this is still far too prevalent. An unmarried woman who is in her 20s, with a college degree, starting out on a career, with no child (because she’s on birth control), is referred to as a girl, and she’s expected to like this. A similar man would NOT be referred to as a boy, or at least he wouldn’t be expected to like it. ---
**Author:** ![GoodOmens](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@GoodOmens](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GoodOmens)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/36 "2013-01-31T13:52:10Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Samantha Bee’s response to it: “Have you ever actually met any women?” > > Browne: “Yes, several.” > > Bee: “Any woman who didn’t want to strangle you?” Goddammit I love Samatha Bee. ---
**Author:** ![gallows\_fodder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8c91f0/32.png) [@gallows\_fodder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gallows_fodder)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/37 "2013-01-31T14:22:42Z")
Well, fill in the blanks with the first thing that comes into your head: “_Real_ men […]” “_Real_ women […]” The first thing that comes into my head for women is, “_Real_ women have curves.” That’s the most frequent use of that phrase that I experience. And…it’s bullshit. First of all, real women have curves, and don’t have curves, and in fact come in all shapes and sizes. Some of them even have breast implants and plastic surgery, zomg. (Plus, hey, I have curves now, but if I got sick and lost 50 pounds and lost my curves, would I stop being a real woman? How does that work?) And in line with the philosophy referenced in the OP, having curves is largely outside of your control and just something that happens to you when you go through puberty. It’s not something you do, it’s what you look like. The other filled in blank that I’ve encountered though less often and hopefully it’s dying out, is that you don’t become a real woman until you’ve had children. And the longer labor you’ve had, the more bad-ass you are (although again, that’s largely out of your control – it’s not like you could choose to have your baby in 5 hours, but by god, you’re going to tough this out and have him in 10). Other than that, I can’t think of any other thresholds our culture has decided mark the boundary between “girls” and “women.” Not that I agree with the guy quoted in the OP, because I don’t think these are true thresholds in actuality, but it is true that this sentiment is floating around in our culture and in certain people’s heads. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/38 "2013-01-31T14:34:51Z")
I saw this guy on CNN and my first thought, really, was, “What kind of man writes a whole frikken book about how women shouldn’t be allowed to do something.” Obsess much? Was his mom killed in combat or something? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/39 "2013-01-31T14:47:40Z")
More like “girls become women by growing older because they were already pretty mature in a lot of ways as girls; boys become men by refining their ability to act like jerks”. I opted out back in elementary school. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/40 "2013-01-31T15:17:12Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > More like “girls become women by growing older because they were already pretty mature in a lot of ways as girls; boys become men by refining their ability to act like jerks”. > > I opted out back in elementary school. Isn’t that too young to get the jerk-reassignment surgery? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844.md?page=3)