# "Girls become women by growing older; boys become men by accomplishing something." **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 30, 2013, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844 "2013-01-30T22:46:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Blaster\_Master](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/cab0a1/32.png) [@Blaster\_Master](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blaster_Master)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/41 "2013-01-31T15:18:22Z")
I saw the interview and I found that guy’s perspective off-putting as well. He’s clearly got an old-fashioned and offensive view of women, but I can’t really call it mysogynistic because I think it’s just as offensive toward’s men as well. Consider, he’s also basically saying that you’re not a real man unless you’ve accomplished something, like some sort of trial to manhood. The problem is, we’re not some small tribe where a man becomes a man on his first hunt or after some ritual, there is no set cultural reference point for when a boy becomes a man OTHER than some age benchmark, typically 18 or 21 or whatever. And, in today’s society, that is just as true of women. So, it seems to me, he’s just plain come some old-fashioned views about gender roles, by unfairly underestimating women and placing an excessive barrier to manhood on men. Like the Captain (?) she was also interviewing said, people like this are going to be dying off soon, then we’ll start seeing more real change. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/42 "2013-01-31T15:23:18Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > I loved that. Also, the soldier in that interview was awesome. > > To the idea in the OP - 50 years ago, it would have been more accurate to say “girls become women by getting married and giving birth,” just getting older wasn’t enough - or at least not until they were very old. Women who hadn’t done the former were still expected to be in their parents’ house and weren’t really “grown up.” Women who hadn’t done the latter weren’t considered real adults, yet, though they were on the road. Women who did those things out of the expected order were the downfall of society. Yup, how society forgets the past. Girls, to become women, had to GET MARRIED. If you didn’t get married relatively young there was something wrong with you and you weren’t really a woman. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/43 "2013-01-31T15:33:12Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Of course the opinion he stated is offensive – but that is his First Amandment right. > > Can anyone imagine what would if a man threatened a woman (even a male basher) with violence? Do you think anyone in their right mind felt that Samantha Bee was actually threatening him? > [@amarinth](#): > > To the idea in the OP - 50 years ago, it would have been more accurate to say “girls become women by getting married and giving birth,” just getting older wasn’t enough - or at least not until they were very old. Women who hadn’t done the former were still expected to be in their parents’ house and weren’t really “grown up.” Women who hadn’t done the latter weren’t considered real adults, yet, though they were on the road. Women who did those things out of the expected order were the downfall of society. I didn’t see the interview, but I feel like people are getting their politically correct liberal unisex undergarments in a bundle over nothing. Back in the day, the idea in the OP was correct. Girls become “women” by getting married and having a family while boys become “men” by proving they have the wherewithal to take care of a family (usually through killing, building or smashing something). Obviously a lot has changed over the years and we as a society don’t really have much in the way of shared events that say “congratulations! You’re an adult and ready to join the tribe now!” Maybe graduating high school or college. But that doesn’t really bring any sort of “I’m a man/woman now” epiphany. Most people just sort of drift around for some more years (or longer) or start out as a “freshman” again in some other institution (ie their office, the military, grad school). I mean you don’t feel much different after graduation like you killed a buffalo with a spear or something. IMHO, maybe it’s one of the reasons there are so many reality shows about overpriviledged middle-aged morons acting like bickering 15 year olds? Or some of the most popular shows and movies are about people in their 20s or 30s floating through life, complaining about and resisting the demands and responsibilities of adulthood for as long as possible? ---
**Author:** ![drew870mitchell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drew870mitchell/32/3946_2.png) [@drew870mitchell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drew870mitchell)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/44 "2013-01-31T15:52:03Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Now, not all people think this way about women. But this is still far too prevalent. An unmarried woman who is in her 20s, with a college degree, starting out on a career, with no child (because she’s on birth control), is referred to as a girl, and she’s expected to like this. A similar man would NOT be referred to as a boy, or at least he wouldn’t be expected to like it. “Boy” carries old racial connotations. What young men _are_ referred to as is “guys”. I understand that it’s a generational thing. Is there another informal word for women that you’d prefer? Should we bring back “gals”? ---
**Author:** ![Jragon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Jragon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jragon)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/45 "2013-01-31T15:56:03Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Women, even women in their 30s and older, are routinely referred to as girls, and what’s more, they’re expected to take this as a compliment. Women are regarded as not being fully adult, even if they are grandmas, by a great many men, and even by many women. > > Women are regarded as adults when they pass a certain age only in the respect that they are capable of consenting to have sex, get married, and possibly become mothers. They are not regarded as people who know their own desires, especially if they want to get an abortion or get sterilized. > > Now, not all people think this way about women. But this is still far too prevalent. An unmarried woman who is in her 20s, with a college degree, starting out on a career, with no child (because she’s on birth control), is referred to as a girl, and she’s expected to like this. A similar man would NOT be referred to as a boy, or at least he wouldn’t be expected to like it. I think part of it is that “gal” never really took off outside the American south (and in Arizona, it’s such an uncommon term using “gal” will get you odd looks and mild teasing), so “girl” is an overloaded term – acting both as a term for “literal femal child” and “slang term – female equivalent of ‘guy’”. I think it’s the desire for a symmetric term and both have that initial somewhat lax sounding “g” sound. I try not to use “girl” much because I know it can be misinterpreted, but I don’t think there’s much infantilization or malice intended in most people who use it. Saying “woman” all the time just sounds overly formal and clinical to me, just like using the word “man”. I use them in a formal context, but it just sounds wrong in an informal one when I don’t hear “guy” and “girl” used. I try to use “guy” for everybody, but when the gender is important to the conversation, I subconsciously reach for “girl” before “woman” in an informal setting. Has nothing to do with me thinking women are children or lesser or anything, all it is is a laid back, informal, casual term. I’ve been trying out changing it to “lady” instead, but found that term has its own problems. When you use it people either think you believe a woman should act “ladylike”, or think you’re referring to an older woman. (And some even associate the word “lady” with “obnoxious entitled woman” because so many people use it in phrases like “and this lady totally went off on me!”). There’s also “chick”, but that’s not much better from an infantilization standpoint – and depending on the company you keep may be misconstrued as sexualizing/objectifying (for reasons I haven’t figured out). ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/46 "2013-01-31T16:51:11Z")
> [@drew870mitchell](#): > > “Boy” carries old racial connotations. What young men _are_ referred to as is “guys”. > > I understand that it’s a generational thing. Is there another informal word for women that you’d prefer? Should we bring back “gals”? No, no, the counterpart to “guys” would be “dolls”! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/47 "2013-01-31T16:54:45Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > There’s also “chick”, but that’s not much better from an infantilization standpoint – and depending on the company you keep may be misconstrued as sexualizing/objectifying (for reasons I haven’t figured out). What “misconstrued”? We legitimately, honestly do **need** a word for sexualizing/objectifying women, because that **is** entirely appropriate in very many situations, and don’t no feminist try to tell me any different; and “chick” and “girl” are the least-offensive words I can think of for that purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/48 "2013-01-31T16:57:03Z")
> [@amarinth](#): > > To the idea in the OP - 50 years ago, it would have been more accurate to say “girls become women by getting married and giving birth,” just getting older wasn’t enough - or at least not until they were very old. Women who hadn’t done the former were still expected to be in their parents’ house and weren’t really “grown up.” Women who hadn’t done the latter weren’t considered real adults, yet, though they were on the road. Yes, but girls were considered **eligible** to do this (get married and have children) simply by virtue of being old enough—hitting puberty, or whatever the societal benchmark was. With boys, merely reaching a certain age wasn’t enough: they had to establish themselves and demonstrate that they could earn enough money, or hold up their place in society. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/49 "2013-01-31T17:05:24Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > Women, even women in their 30s and older, are routinely referred to as girls, and what’s more, they’re expected to take this as a compliment. Yet it’s the women who have this hang-up about age. It’s considered rude to ask them their age. They throw a bitch fit if they have to give their age and most women say they are 29 when they have a birthday even though they are grandmothers. So I’d say they are expected to take it as a compliment because they demanded it from men in the first place. > [@AHunter3](#): > > More like “girls become women by growing older because they were already pretty mature in a lot of ways as girls; boys become men by refining their ability to act like jerks”. > > I opted out back in elementary school. So to show my boss how awesome and manly I am I should go to his office and toss all his papers on the floor and then laugh at him and call him a pigfucker? So since Obama is the head man of the country he is also the biggest jerk in the country? I can get behind that. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/50 "2013-01-31T17:13:52Z")
For the seriously hardcore misogynists, there used to be more to becoming a woman than simply growing up. “Become a woman” is an old-fashioned expression that, in the old days, meant: ‘taking a man’s dick in you for the first time’. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/51 "2013-01-31T18:07:27Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > For the seriously hardcore misogynists, there used to be more to becoming a woman than simply growing up. “Become a woman” is an old-fashioned expression that, in the old days, meant: ‘taking a man’s dick in you for the first time’. I’ve also heard it used to mean “having your first menstrual period.” ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/52 "2013-01-31T18:10:00Z")
> [@Drunky\_Smurf](#): > > So to show my boss how awesome and manly I am I should go to his office and toss all his papers on the floor and then laugh at him and call him a pigfucker? Yes! Yes! Be a man! Do it today! Report back! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/53 "2013-01-31T18:13:02Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > For the seriously hardcore misogynists, there used to be more to becoming a woman than simply growing up. “Become a woman” is an old-fashioned expression that, in the old days, meant: ‘taking a man’s dick in you for the first time’. Yeah that’s what I was thinking. “I’ll make you a woman” is a sexual threat. And of course, requires a man’s, uh, help. This sort of all reminds me of the double standard of parenting, too. A man is “a real man” when he does stuff like carries a diaper bag, has tea parties with his daughters or gives his son a bath. When a woman does that stuff she’s just doing what’s expected. I saw a pic on Facebook today of a guy fishing with his daughter. The sole comment was “Good dad.” Yeah a guy paying attention to his kid. Exceptional! (I am not saying that there is nothing nice or heartwarming seeing a guy with his kid. It’s just not better than when a woman does it, nor is it an exceptional feat for either to spend time with their kid.) ---
**Author:** ![redtail23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/3e96dc/32.png) [@redtail23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/redtail23)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/54 "2013-01-31T18:19:30Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I’ve also heard it used to mean “having your first menstrual period.” And “have your first baby”. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/55 "2013-01-31T18:20:32Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Children are mostly assaulted, abused and killed by women, while adults of either sex are mostly assaulted, abused and killed by men. > > Nevertheless threatening violence against anyone should be unacceptable. I don’t know what children have to do with this. They are in a protected class all their own. In a perfect world, everybody would be protected equally. I think we can all agree on that point. But this isn’t a perfect world and a woman has more to fear when threatened by a man than the other way around. Furthermore, **chiroptera** ’s comments can in no way be considered as a threat of any kind. It’s a comment on an message board made about a person not directly at/to the person. I don’t know how it can be even remotely construed as a threat. An off-hand comment, sure. But a threat?? I don’t see it. Pretty sure nobody else does either. I think you are really reaching and looking for excuses to be offended. And if it makes you feel any better, you are well within your right to feel offended at this. Just don’t expect everyone else to join you. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/56 "2013-01-31T18:30:54Z")
I’m confused - are we outraged for the women, the men, or both? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/57 "2013-01-31T18:32:07Z")
ISTM that men are referred to as “boys” especially if it’s accompanied by some other description. E.g. “the boys in the back”, “the big boys” and so on. And it apparently [goes back a long way](http://izquotes.com/quote/232520). ---
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/58 "2013-01-31T18:37:19Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > I’m confused - are we outraged for the women, the men, or both? 😕 Both, because the comment is offensive to both. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [January 31, 2013, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/59 "2013-01-31T18:46:20Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > I’m confused - are we outraged for the women, the men, or both? 😕 > [@Zsofia](#): > > Both, because the comment is offensive to both. Yeah sort of like “What have you done to prove your manliness?” (to men) and “You can’t do anything to improve your station.” (to women) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2013, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844/60 "2013-02-02T01:44:35Z")
Here’s a cultural cliche that comes to mind: Does anybody ever tell a daughter, as opposed to a son, that she should do or endure this or that because it “builds character”? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-become-women-by-growing-older-boys-become-men-by-accomplishing-something/648844.md?page=4)