# Girls starting developing earlier? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 20, 2004, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-starting-developing-earlier/255980 "2004-07-20T10:48:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![lemon\_martini2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3be4f8/32.png) [@lemon\_martini2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lemon_martini2)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-starting-developing-earlier/255980/1 "2004-07-20T10:48:53Z")
Don’t worry.I’m not lurking about changing rooms taking notes,but from what I remember from school,even in the last year of primary school,the girls weren’t that developed.A couple had croptops and that was all.Now it seems that all of them are wearing bras,and some of them can’t be more than 7 or 8.Some haven’t got anything to put in them 😃 so its just to look grownup,but some are definitely well developed…so is it something in the water?or is it just that things like vests and croptops have disappeared(and whatever happened to the Lycra body)…or did we just have a particularly flat year. :dubious: I think I’d better finish my question there as…ah the police are already on their way… ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-starting-developing-earlier/255980/2 "2004-07-20T11:15:35Z")
Previous thread on a similar theme: [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=260612&highlight=puberty](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=260612&highlight=puberty) Basically, the answer is yes, and nobody really knows why. Diet, lifestyle and environmental hormone levels have all changed drastically in the West throughout the last century, and could all be factors. ---
**Author:** ![soadmxpx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@soadmxpx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soadmxpx)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-starting-developing-earlier/255980/3 "2004-07-20T11:40:50Z")
Thats odd because I thought kids were devolping slowly. Im in high school and when I was in the 9th grade the kids look grown up most boys with full grown beards now 3 years later the 9th grades look like they are 7 they are all short possibly 4’5-4’7! Not only that but they act as if they are 7 back in the 9th grade we just acted like we were still in middle school. Once I drove by my old middle school and the kids were extremely short like 4’6 they looked and none of the boys had beards or girls had breasts they looked 7!! ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-starting-developing-earlier/255980/4 "2004-07-20T12:11:03Z")
> [@soadmxpx](#): > > Thats odd because I thought kids were devolping slowly. Im in high school and when I was in the 9th grade the kids look grown up most boys with full grown beards now 3 years later the 9th grades look like they are 7 they are all short possibly 4’5-4’7! It’s just your perception. I had the same experience growing up. You and your friends looked just like them 3 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![MrFantsyPants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ba0ec/32.png) [@MrFantsyPants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrFantsyPants)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-starting-developing-earlier/255980/5 "2004-07-20T13:00:11Z")
I remember an article a little while ago about toddlers as young as 3 starting to enter puberty, and a specific brand of shampoo was being implicated. A google of [“girls shampoo puberty”](http://www.google.com/search?q=girls+shampoo+puberty&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8) turns up some interesting reading. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-starting-developing-earlier/255980/6 "2004-07-20T13:03:42Z")
There have been several reasons postulated, and some are plausible while some aren’t. Hormones in meat and milk are not, pthalates are not. Better nutrition is certainly a factor, but I think the biggest factor is the increase in childhood obesity (girls on average have much more body fat than they did when my classmates were developing in the early 70s). Then there’s the recall bias problem. I was pretty much a dumbass when I was 13, and didn’t appreciate the finer things until I was a few years older, so I think that even if breast development were actually the same, my perception would be that girls have more boobs now. ---
**Author:** ![soadmxpx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8edcca/32.png) [@soadmxpx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/soadmxpx)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-starting-developing-earlier/255980/7 "2004-07-20T13:07:01Z")
> [@1920s Style "Death Ray"](#): > > It’s just your perception. I had the same experience growing up. You and your friends looked just like them 3 years ago. Even the teachers notice how young and small the kids look and my mom noticed the next door neighbor going to my high school and she said “Isn’t she 12?” she thought the kid was in some super excelerated program. ---
**Author:** ![citrus\_x\_paradisi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6f9a4e/32.png) [@citrus\_x\_paradisi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/citrus_x_paradisi)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2004, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-starting-developing-earlier/255980/8 "2004-07-20T14:13:06Z")
Wow, thanks **MrFantsyPants**. That’s a _great_ thing to have in Google’s “previous queries” dropdown. :o For those that would like to avoid this, [this site](http://www.gina.antczak.btinternet.co.uk/CU/PUBERT.HTM) offers the following summary: \*An article published in New Scientist on 3 April 2002 described how girls as young as eight, and in one case just 14 months, started to develop pubic hair and breasts after using shampoo that contained hormones. Unbeknown to many parents, a few hair products - especially some targeted at African-Americans - contain small amounts of hormones that could cause premature sexual development in girls. The evidence that shampoos and conditioners that contain estrogens cause premature puberty is largely circumstantial, and the case is still unproven.\* However, I believe the OP is concerned with the average girl, not freak incidents like the above. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![lemon\_martini2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3be4f8/32.png) [@lemon\_martini2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lemon_martini2)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-starting-developing-earlier/255980/9 "2004-07-21T10:16:25Z")
We used to all change together for PE(gym) in the classroom at junior school.I wonder if they still do that know?And I can definitely remember getting changed with the girls on occasions up to about 2nd year secondary school(13 or so).This was in about 1992…are there any other secondary schools that still do this.Or were we the last? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-starting-developing-earlier/255980/10 "2004-07-21T11:44:51Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > There have been several reasons postulated, and some are plausible while some aren’t. Hormones in meat and milk are not, pthalates are not. Why not? (aka “cite?”) ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-starting-developing-earlier/255980/11 "2004-07-21T14:18:09Z")
For the issue of hormones in milk, this is from the [NIH](http://consensus.nih.gov/ta/007/007_statement.htm): > [@](#): > > Human and bovine milk normally contain small amounts of growth hormone. After ingestion, growth hormone is handled by the gut as any other protein in milk: it is digested into its constituent amino acids and di- and tripeptides. There are no data to suggest that BST present in milk will survive digestion or produce unique peptide fragments that might have biological effects. Even if BST is absorbed intact, the growth hormone receptors in the human do not recognize BST and, therefore, BST cannot produce effects in humans. This conclusion is affirmed by earlier studies that showed that BST administered by injection to growth hormone-deficient children was ineffective in augmenting growth or promoting nitrogen retention, nor are there convincing data that fragments of BST are biologically active in humans. Further, from available animal studies, there is no evidence that rBST administered orally in very high doses to species capable of responding to injected rBST is absorbed or has a biologic effect. IGF-I concentrations in human milk are 1 to 3 ng/ml (parts per billion) while pooled cows’ milk contains somewhat higher amounts. This protein will also be digested into its amino acid, di- and tripeptide constituents by gut enzymes. Similarly, there is no evidence that proteolytic fragments of IGF-I are biologically active in man, nor is there evidence of systemic biological effects in man from any IGF-I absorbed intact, because the amounts of IGF-I that might potentially be ingested are orders of magnitude less than those required to produce such effects. Regarding phthalates, the article [http://www.fumento.com/disrupt.html](http://www.fumento.com/disrupt.html) says: > [@](#): > > Stephen Safe, a toxicologist at Texas A&M University, is one who thinks the dangers are overblown. He points out that the total hormonal activity of the synthetic modulators we receive from industrial activity is 40 million times lower than that from the natural components of foods we eat. The list of plants that appear to contain natural hormone modulators includes soybeans, barley, cabbage and corn. Researchers at King’s College in the United Kingdom recently reported that in test animals, one natural estrogen found in plants is 10 to 100 times as potent as bisphenol A. They also found that three different phthalates — the chemicals that caused the British dairy panic — produced no hormonal effects whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-starting-developing-earlier/255980/12 "2004-07-21T15:22:00Z")
**soadmxpx** , I’m sorry but I’m going to have to back **1920’s Style “Death Ray”** on this one, testimony from your mother and teachers aside. This happened to all of us. Perhaps the current crop of kids in your school are unusually small, but any of us looking at the new kids from the vantage point of three years on found them too small and childish looking (and acting!) to compare with ourselves at that age. When I was introduced to the facts of life (at age 10, in 1986), all the books said that menstruation could begin anytime from 8 years of age on, though typically it began in the early teens. A girl I befriended at the age of 11 was already well developed and wearing a bra; apparently she had needed one since she was 8. She wasn’t alone though I will admit that most of the rest of us didn’t start developing for 12 months or so. Anyway, my point is that even twenty years ago, it was not unheard of for 8 years olds to have their period or develop breasts. I don’t know if it’s become more common or if it’s a matter of perspective. ---
**Author:** ![lemon\_martini2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3be4f8/32.png) [@lemon\_martini2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lemon_martini2)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-starting-developing-earlier/255980/13 "2004-07-21T16:47:01Z")
The genes must just have swum past our school our.Pity-when you’re 11 you can get away with getting an 11 yr old to show you her bra 🙂 when you’re older it seems to be frowned upon for some reason. I’m still curious as to whether any schools allow mixed changing or whether ours was just late catching up (mind you,they didn’t put a roof on the swimming pool till 1999 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![Ross](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e274bd/32.png) [@Ross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ross)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-starting-developing-earlier/255980/14 "2004-07-21T21:00:54Z")
This may not be a new thing, mind. A book (which I have JUST TODAY returned to the library, unfortunately) about Mohammad addresses his taking a remarkably young girl as his wife… I can’t remember quite how old she was, but she wasn’t more than 12 or 13, and could have been as little as 8 or 9. Anyway, it’s not that such political marriages are anything all that unusual across history, but in defence of the Prophet, the book said that girls matured at an astonishingly young age in 7th century Arabia. I have no idea where he got that. The book is “Mohammad: Prophet and Statesman” by Wm Watt. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-starting-developing-earlier/255980/15 "2004-07-21T21:03:09Z")
How many martinis? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-starting-developing-earlier/255980/16 "2004-07-21T21:13:30Z")
> [@lemon\_martini2](#): > > We used to all change together for PE(gym) in the classroom at junior school.I wonder if they still do that know?And I can definitely remember getting changed with the girls on occasions up to about 2nd year secondary school(13 or so).This was in about 1992…are there any other secondary schools that still do this.Or were we the last? Gotta have P.E. to be able to change for it. P.E. classes are being cut across the board, due in part to the “all children must be treated equal” philosophy which is so prevalent today. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-starting-developing-earlier/255980/17 "2004-07-21T21:28:00Z")
This is the first I’ve heard of schools cutting P.E. Where, exactly, has this been happening? **lemon\_martini2** , in my school district, kids change for gym class from grades 7-12 (ages 12-18). ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-starting-developing-earlier/255980/18 "2004-07-21T23:16:55Z")
I don’t really have time to google right now but a bit of looking has turned up these: Goshen Central School District, Goshen, NY: all extracurricular sports cut. Kansas University: Physical Eduacation degree program cut. Lexington, MA: P.E. in elementary school reduced and in danger of being reduced in middle & high schools; middle school JV sports cut. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2004, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-starting-developing-earlier/255980/19 "2004-07-21T23:25:06Z")
Here’s something less specific: [http://www.stateline.org/stateline/?pa=story&sa=showStoryInfo&id=363521](http://www.stateline.org/stateline/?pa=story&sa=showStoryInfo&id=363521). ---
**Author:** ![lemon\_martini2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3be4f8/32.png) [@lemon\_martini2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lemon_martini2)\ **Post date:** [July 22, 2004, 11:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-starting-developing-earlier/255980/20 "2004-07-22T11:00:01Z")
> [@Omega Glory](#): > > This is the first I’ve heard of schools cutting P.E. Where, exactly, has this been happening? **lemon\_martini2** , in my school district, kids change for gym class from grades 7-12 (ages 12-18). Ah I think you missed the point of my question.Whilst the vast majority of schools have PE(gym) and change into PE(gym)kit…I was emphasizing the fact that at our school **boys and girls got changed together in the same rooms**.unless you’re saying that that is the case as well in your school district… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-starting-developing-earlier/255980.md?page=2)