# Girls Vs Boys (strength) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 22, 2011, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422 "2011-10-22T04:35:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/21 "2011-10-22T17:01:56Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > As John McEnroe(and many others) has pointed out that the 200th ranked man in tennis could absolutely kill the 1st ranked women in tennis any day. Every time, too. Why is that? I never saw tennis as a strength sport. Is it about speed? I am no tennis fan tho, it might be about strength. ---
**Author:** ![Voluble](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/4af34b/32.png) [@Voluble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voluble)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/22 "2011-10-22T17:36:39Z")
I noticed you said you were told these things in university lectures. I would demand my money back if I were paying to attend. What you were listening to was propaganda. Every day of our lives we have feedback from our surroundings that confirms that men are on average stronger and larger than women. I am completely agnostic as to whether this is a good thing or a bad thing. It just is. Had they told you that the sky was pink would you have believed them? Sometimes it is pink but the vast majority of the time it is blue. For them to make a statement that women are stronger or as strong without any caveats would be something that you should have rejected out of hand short of very strong evidence to the contrary because what they were trying to argue is contradicted by our everyday experience. Scientific studies are easy to find [Gender differences in strength and muscle fiber characteristics - PubMed](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8477683) as well. This one finds women to be 50-60% as strong as men. Not as an offer of proof but as a perhaps interesting aside I tried to match what Saje said she can do. I am a male who has not lifted a weight in anger for close to 30 years and I live a completely unhealthy and sedentary life. Most of my life I was small and had trouble putting on weight until I got my middle age spread. I was able to beat every benchmark she mentioned except for the push-ups. I am sure she is healthier than I am, and I admire her will and determination, but we are about the same age and biology has made up the entire difference in training between us. I take no solace in the fact that men on average die earlier so maybe we can at least be allowed to enjoy a modest strength advantage in the interim. It would have been interesting though for you to ask the lecturers for the scientific basis for their statements. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/23 "2011-10-22T17:58:09Z")
> [@Voluble](#): > > Scientific studies are easy to find [Gender differences in strength and muscle fiber characteristics - PubMed](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8477683) as well. This one finds women to be 50-60% as strong as men. Note that this is specific to upper body strength. The strength differential between men and women in the lower body is a bit smaller. ---
**Author:** ![code\_grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f4b2a3/32.png) [@code\_grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/code_grey)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/24 "2011-10-22T18:02:22Z")
what’s so darn special in the ability to do 20 pushups in a row? Or is it unusual specifically amongst preteens? ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/25 "2011-10-22T18:10:51Z")
> [@code\_grey](#): > > what’s so darn special in the ability to do 20 pushups in a row? Or is it unusual specifically amongst preteens? Yeah, 20 pushups seems pretty easy. And I’m far from an athelete. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/26 "2011-10-22T18:11:51Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > Why is that? I never saw tennis as a strength sport. Is it about speed? I am no tennis fan tho, it might be about strength. At a guess, I’d say the power in a serve is pretty important. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/27 "2011-10-22T18:24:20Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > Why is that? I never saw tennis as a strength sport. Is it about speed? I am no tennis fan tho, it might be about strength. Hitting the ball in general - men’s greater upper body strength means they can generate more power and move the ball faster. [Cite](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fastest_recorded_tennis_serves) for service, but it is the same for the other strokes. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/28 "2011-10-22T18:33:55Z")
The point is that “strength” is not a one dimensional, single figure measurement, and the distribution of physical strength between genders overlaps. To say that “women are just as strong as men” is pretty much completely against most people’s every day common sense experience of the world, leading me to assume that the basis for the statement was based on some very circumscribed definition of “strength” where things like leverage, weight distribution, etc., are brought into the equation. Most people’s intuitive definition of “strength” would be defined by what you can do with your body to manipulate foreign objects: to lift them, pull them, push them, throw them. Not to do push-ups or pull-ups, which activities depend on how heavy one’s own body is, and are used as conditioning exercises to maintain or increase one’s strength. To manipulate foreign objects using only one’s body automatically depends on differences of leverage and weight distribution over the body, even between people of the same gender. For example, similar to the earlier example of lifting one’s forehead off the ground in a kneeling position with one’s hands behind the back, men typically cannot lift even a light folding or plastic lawn chair into the air while bent over it ([like this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRixqIAsXa0)), while women typically have no problems. But how often is it necessary in everyday life to lift objects while bent over them like that? Pretty much never. On the other hand, men are, on average, much better at generating higher forces at things like punching or throwing objects, and at dead lifting weights. Certainly at the elite level, top men in boxing, baseball pitchers and weightlifters clearly and by far outdo what is attainable by equally top women in the same activities. There is also a reason why the East German doping programs in these types of activities involved giving young women male sex hormones. ---
**Author:** ![lazybratsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ba8739/32.png) [@lazybratsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lazybratsche)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/29 "2011-10-22T18:40:54Z")
> [@DaveBfd](#): > > My problem with this reasoning is that although men do outperform women in sports it can still be easily argued that our society still routes women away from sports and encourages men to participate. The population of women taking part or even initially being exposed to sports is much lower and could account for some or all (depending on how strongly you think this impacts the results) of the discrepancy. But with Olympic athletes, both the male and female cohorts have spent their entire lives developing their strength and athleticism. Take it as given that girls are normally more discouraged than boys from developing strength and athleticism. Even in that case, though, the Olympic female athletes were the girls that completely ignored that discouragement. They’re not girls that spent their childhood playing a handful of not-very-serious sports who then decided to start training seriously at age 20. I can see what you’re getting at, but I can’t see how you could possibly end up with the observed discrepancy just by the fact that there are fewer female athletes. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/30 "2011-10-22T18:45:16Z")
I can! I can! Those teachers are blithering idiots. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/the_other_waldo_pepper/32/12370_2.png) [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/31 "2011-10-22T18:53:11Z")
> [@robardin](#): > > Most people’s intuitive definition of “strength” would be defined by what you can do with your body to manipulate foreign objects: to lift them, pull them, push them, throw them. Not to do push-ups or pull-ups, which activities depend on how heavy one’s own body is, and are used as conditioning exercises to maintain or increase one’s strength. > [@](#): > > On the other hand, men are, on average, much better at generating higher forces at things like punching or throwing objects, and at dead lifting weights. Certainly at the elite level, top men in boxing, baseball pitchers and weightlifters clearly and by far outdo what is attainable by equally top women in the same activities. That said, can’t we all pretty much guess that the next Olympics won’t just involve men lifting heavier weights and throwing javelins farther, but also involve various men pushing their bodies through water a heck of a lot faster while other men are pole-vaulting their bodies a heck of a lot higher, and so on? Won’t men with impressive leg muscles wind up running faster over every distance than the women trying to do likewise? ---
**Author:** ![DaveBfd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DaveBfd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaveBfd)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/32 "2011-10-22T18:54:22Z")
> [@lazybratsche](#): > > I can see what you’re getting at, but I can’t see how you could possibly end up with the observed discrepancy just by the fact that there are fewer female athletes. I agree also. I just wanted to ensure that I was indeed not crazy. I have learned to take a lot of what i hear with a grain of salt regardless of who I hear it from. And Raindog, I do agree sometimes! ---
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/33 "2011-10-22T20:45:06Z")
> [@robardin](#): > > … kneel, put our hands behind our backs and touch our foreheads to the ground… Then, to try to get up without using our hands or rolling over… ? I tried this, and it was simple to just straighten up and then stand up. Am I missing something? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/34 "2011-10-22T21:11:02Z")
> [@ZenBeam](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > And when running a woman’s less mechanically efficient wide hips causes them to use up more energy for every step. > > Got a cite handy? It’s certainly believable, but I’ve never came across that before. I’m looking, but it’s widely known enough that Google brings up all sorts of non-scientific mentions of it ([example](http://books.google.com/books?id=4z2nJCmXB6YC&pg=PA104&lpg=PA104&dq=women+%2B+%22wide+hips%22+%2B+running+%2B+efficiency&source=bl&ots=qCL8w8ImsM&sig=8GLk2dnrcTCvYcxDVuvaUx8l-qE&hl=en&ei=FS-jTuK-MKXXiALmhpWKAQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CG0Q6AEwCTgK#v=onepage&q&f=false)) which makes it hard to find something really cite worthy. > [@saje](#): > > On more than one occasion we’ve had a new guy join the class, and while they may start out at a lower weight than I do they very quickly outstrip me, even the guys who are not fitness and sports types, the guys who sit all day for work and don’t do much more on weekends. IIRC one of the effects of elevated testosterone is that men can build muscle _faster_, not just more of it. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/35 "2011-10-22T21:29:38Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > IIRC one of the effects of elevated testosterone is that men can build muscle _faster_, not just more of it. Yes, but not at that rate. The sort of progress that a novice lifter makes has much more to do with their nervous systems getting it together than actual muscular changes. ---
**Author:** ![scootergirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e99b99/32.png) [@scootergirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scootergirl)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/36 "2011-10-22T21:48:30Z")
> [@Baracus](#): > > For Pete’s sake guys, did you read **scootergirl’s** post all the way to the end? She is giving her anecdote as support of **Ambivalid’s** suggestion that while on average men are stronger there are exceptions, not to suggest that women are stronger than men as a whole. While perhaps not a perfect example, I don’t think it is really arguable that there are some women stronger than some men. Thank you, Baracus!! I read the OP’s question and I simply thought about my kids as a possible reference to this subject. In writing it, I am \*\*by no means \*\*suggesting that women are arguably stronger than men. Also, the title “Girls vs Boys (strength)” is what particularly made me think of my two kids. I completely understand that – “Things like ability to do pushups and chin-ups have a lot to do with the weight that is being lifted.” I shouldn’t have used the words “perfect example,” boy do I regret doing that. It really **wasn’t an example** …it was more a response in agreeance to Ambivalid’s post. Good god, mellow out guys. Yes, you are stronger! I find this subject pretty damn boring actually and will refrain from participating in these types of threads in the future. Happy now? ---
**Author:** ![scootergirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e99b99/32.png) [@scootergirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scootergirl)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/37 "2011-10-22T22:03:37Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > Yeah, 20 pushups seems pretty easy. And I’m far from an athelete. Look, I am not bragging about my kid if that’s what you are thinking. If I wanted to build them up as something extraordinary and special, I would pick something about them that is not as unimportant and boring as push-ups even is she is the only kid in her class that can do this. ---
**Author:** ![Ambivalid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a5b964/32.png) [@Ambivalid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ambivalid)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/38 "2011-10-22T22:06:55Z")
> [@scootergirl](#): > > Look, **I am not bragging about my kid** if that’s what you are thinking. If I wanted to build them up as something extraordinary and special, I would pick something about them that is not as unimportant and boring as push-ups **even if she is the only kid in her class that can do this**. Bolding mine. You just couldn’t resist, huh? ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/39 "2011-10-22T22:20:45Z")
> [@scootergirl](#): > > Look, I am not bragging about my kid if that’s what you are thinking. If I wanted to build them up as something extraordinary and special, I would pick something about them that is not as unimportant and boring as push-ups even is she is the only kid in her class that can do this. I didn’t think you were bragging about your kid; I didn’t even register the “kid” bit, just the “20 push ups” bit in the post “_what’s so darn special in the ability to do 20 pushups in a row? Or is it unusual specifically amongst preteens?_” (the one to which I replied and which did not mention your child). I _now_ find it weird (now I’m considering it in context of your post about your child, and not just in reply to the post I replied to) that nobody else could do 20 push-ups. 20 push-ups is very easy. As I said, I’m no athlete (I mean really - I am not what you’d call fit), and that’s _very_ easy for me, and was when I was 8, 18, 28 and now 38. It seems incongruous to me that there’s a class of kids out there of which only one can do 20 push-ups. Maybe kids these days really are as unfit and obese as the media says. Dunno; haven’t a clue. But sure as hell, when I was at school, everybody could do 20 push ups without breaking a sweat. ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/40 "2011-10-22T22:20:47Z")
> [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](#): > > That said, can’t we all pretty much guess that the next Olympics won’t just involve men lifting heavier weights and throwing javelins farther, but also involve various men pushing their bodies through water a heck of a lot faster while other men are pole-vaulting their bodies a heck of a lot higher, and so on? Won’t men with impressive leg muscles wind up running faster over every distance than the women trying to do likewise? Oh indeed. And while the women’s world record for the marathon is impressive at 2h 15m, the men’s top time is 12 minutes less - which doesn’t sound a lot proportionately, but means that in a straight race between Patrick Makau and Paula Radcliffe at their respective bests, the winner would have time to cross the line, stroll over, pick up a pair of binoculars, and peer back down the track for a while before the runner-up came into view a good two miles behind. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422.md?page=3)