# Girls Vs Boys (strength) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 22, 2011, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422 "2011-10-22T04:35:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/41 "2011-10-22T22:32:53Z")
> [@](#): > > There are many “parlor tricks” that use this difference to make women seem “stronger” than men which are based on leverage and the difference in the center of mass. We tried one in college when three guys and three gals at random, aged 20-22 (well, semi-random - just the people hanging out in our dorm common area) were to kneel, put our hands behind our backs and touch our foreheads to the ground… Then, to try to get up without using our hands or rolling over. All the girls had no problems at all. The guys all had great difficulty: only one could do it at all, and he was the skinniest one there, a cyclist who’d gone vegan in his freshman year, and even he strained mightily to do it (“much harder than doing a sit-up”). Like **Rysdad** , I had no difficulty at all with this, and I’m neither skinny nor strong. Is there some detail we’re overlooking? ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/42 "2011-10-22T22:41:36Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Like **Rysdad** , I had no difficulty at all with this, and I’m neither skinny nor strong. Is there some detail we’re overlooking? I’m not sure what he’s describing. A more common trick is to stand with your back against the wall and try to bend over and touch the floor. With a higher center of gravity men tend to fall forward since they can’t shift their CG backwards with the wall in the way. Make sure your heels and butt are against the wall, and don’t bend your knees. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/43 "2011-10-22T23:00:42Z")
> [@robardin](#): > > kneel, put our hands behind our backs and touch our foreheads to the ground… Then, to try to get up without using our hands or rolling over. […] While the rest of us guys could at least raise our heads off the ground a few inches, he was completely pinned there by the weight of his own shoulders and chest. Couldn’t budge an inch without putting his arms out to push himself up. As described, this exercise is trivially easy. I’ve been experimenting to try to figure out a version of it that would be difficult in some way, and give rise to a situation where a person would be unable to lift his head. But the dog came over and started licking my ear so I gave up. ---
**Author:** ![scootergirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e99b99/32.png) [@scootergirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scootergirl)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/44 "2011-10-22T23:07:48Z")
> [@Ambivalid](#): > > Bolding mine. You just couldn’t resist, huh? That’s right, I couldn’t resist. The fact that she can do this makes her a superchild!! I will enter her in contests and try to profit from it. Why I should actually see if she qualifies for some sort of national award on fitness, or perhaps \ a freak show of some kind. ARGH! Out of here now. ---
**Author:** ![hibernicus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hibernicus/32/2802_2.png) [@hibernicus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hibernicus)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/45 "2011-10-22T23:09:12Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > I _now_ find it weird (now I’m considering it in context of your post about your child, and not just in reply to the post I replied to) that nobody else could do 20 push-ups. 20 push-ups is very easy. As I said, I’m no athlete (I mean really - I am not what you’d call fit), and that’s _very_ easy for me, and was when I was 8, 18, 28 and now 38. It seems incongruous to me that there’s a class of kids out there of which only one can do 20 push-ups. 20 push-ups is _not_ very easy. I’m willing to bet that even among healthy adults, only a minority can do 20 push-ups, and that among women the percentage is very small. I attend a weekly Pilates class which is attended by a self-selected group of my colleagues who are relatively fit and active. Even among that group, (almost?) none of the women and not all of the men would be able to do 20 “real” push-ups, and none of the ones that could do it would describe it as “easy” or “very easy”. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/46 "2011-10-22T23:17:54Z")
> [@robardin](#): > > There are many “parlor tricks” that use this difference to make women seem “stronger” than men which are based on leverage and the difference in the center of mass. We tried one in college when three guys and three gals at random, aged 20-22 (well, semi-random - just the people hanging out in our dorm common area) were to kneel, put our hands behind our backs and touch our foreheads to the ground… Then, to try to get up without using our hands or rolling over. All the girls had no problems at all. The guys all had great difficulty: only one could do it at all, and he was the skinniest one there, a cyclist who’d gone vegan in his freshman year, and even he strained mightily to do it (“much harder than doing a sit-up”). > > One of the guys was a football player, really ripped, and when he gave it a try, it was comical. As soon as his head was about 2 feet from the ground he dropped forward like a rock - his forehead smacked the ground with a THUNK. While the rest of us guys could at least raise our heads off the ground a few inches, he was completely pinned there by the weight of his own shoulders and chest. Couldn’t budge an inch without putting his arms out to push himself up. > [@Rysdad](#): > > ? > > I tried this, and it was simple to just straighten up and then stand up. Am I missing something? I also tried it, and had absolutely no problem. Much, much easier than doing a sit-up. And I’ve got a pretty muscular upper-body and a little extra padding. **robardin** : Are you sure you’re not leaving something out of the description of that parlor trick, because I’d be surprised if there’s anyone that can’t do that, as described. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/47 "2011-10-22T23:24:24Z")
^^^^ Ok, I just modified the exercise so that your hands are _behind your head_, and you’re not allowed to touch your arms or elbows to the ground. Now \*that \*was hard. I’ll bet that’s how it was supposed to be done. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/48 "2011-10-22T23:24:49Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > 20 push-ups is _not_ very easy. I’m willing to bet that even among healthy adults, only a minority can do 20 push-ups, and that among women the percentage is very small. > > I attend a weekly Pilates class which is attended by a self-selected group of my colleagues who are relatively fit and active. Even among that group, (almost?) none of the women and not all of the men would be able to do 20 “real” push-ups, and none of the ones that could do it would describe it as “easy” or “very easy”. Really? I guess it’s possible I’m fitter than I think I am. But I don’t feel very fit! I’ve never not been able to easily do 20 push-ups, though. Now pull-ups - they’re hard! ---
**Author:** ![MobiusStripes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d6d6ee/32.png) [@MobiusStripes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MobiusStripes)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/49 "2011-10-22T23:28:49Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Oh indeed. And while the women’s world record for the marathon is impressive at 2h 15m, the men’s top time is 12 minutes less - which doesn’t sound a lot proportionately, but means that in a straight race between Patrick Makau and Paula Radcliffe at their respective bests, the winner would have time to cross the line, stroll over, pick up a pair of binoculars, and peer back down the track for a while before the runner-up came into view a good two miles behind. As distances increase to 50, 100, or more miles, the differences between men and women (at the pointy end of things anyway) start to even out. On more than one occasion a woman has won an ultra outright. > **[UltraLegends.com is for sale | HugeDomains](https://www.hugedomains.com/domain_profile.cfm?d=ultralegends.com&utm_source=hdrhttpstest)** > > Get this domain name before someone else does. Quick and painless shopping. Affordable payment options available. [http://www.runnersworld.com/cda/microsite/article/0,8029,s6-238-511-0-13593-0,00.html](http://www.runnersworld.com/cda/microsite/article/0,8029,s6-238-511-0-13593-0,00.html) Then again, that’s an extreme endurance sport. While strength is required, it’s probably not the same thing the OP was thinking. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/50 "2011-10-22T23:29:55Z")
^^^^^ Oh, and you have to be properly kneeling, and not slide your butt down to your feet, or else it’s still easy. ---
**Author:** ![carnut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnut/32/3531_2.png) [@carnut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnut)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/51 "2011-10-23T00:03:39Z")
> [@robardin](#): > > The point is that “strength” is not a one dimensional, single figure measurement, and the distribution of physical strength between genders overlaps. To say that “women are just as strong as men” is pretty much completely against most people’s every day common sense experience of the world, leading me to assume that the basis for the statement was based on some very circumscribed definition of “strength” where things like leverage, weight distribution, etc., are brought into the equation. > > Most people’s intuitive definition of “strength” would be defined by what you can do with your body to manipulate foreign objects: to lift them, pull them, push them, throw them. Not to do push-ups or pull-ups, which activities depend on how heavy one’s own body is, and are used as conditioning exercises to maintain or increase one’s strength. > > To manipulate foreign objects using only one’s body automatically depends on differences of leverage and weight distribution over the body, even between people of the same gender. For example, similar to the earlier example of lifting one’s forehead off the ground in a kneeling position with one’s hands behind the back, men typically cannot lift even a light folding or plastic lawn chair into the air while bent over it ([like this](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRixqIAsXa0)), while women typically have no problems. But how often is it necessary in everyday life to lift objects while bent over them like that? Pretty much never. > > On the other hand, men are, on average, much better at generating higher forces at things like punching or throwing objects, and at dead lifting weights. Certainly at the elite level, top men in boxing, baseball pitchers and weightlifters clearly and by far outdo what is attainable by equally top women in the same activities. There is also a reason why the East German doping programs in these types of activities involved giving young women male sex hormones. You have good examples robardin. One of the things that they often don’t throw into the mix of measurement is balance or center of gravity. Men’s bodies generally balance through the shoulders making them (on average) better at arm strength activities. Women, on the other hand are balanced lower - through the hips. More of their mass is lower in the body than men. You can clearly see the difference by watching tumbling competitions. When they flip, women’s bodies rotate lower than man’s - rotating around their hips, not their shoulders. This needs to be taken into account if the strength test involves the push/pull external objects type of test. I could out-leg-curl any man in my college weight-training class but they had me seriously outclassed in overhead presses. So how do you make the measurement fair to our body structure differences? We leverage external weight from different places. I don’t have an answer. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/52 "2011-10-23T00:26:08Z")
> [@Toxylon](#): > > As **McMurphy** points out, bodyweight exercises are poor tests of strength, because performing them gets easier really fast as the bodyweight of the person tested goes down. Back in high school, I was a beanpole nerd that could beat most any kid in a pullup test. Yet when I went to a gym for the first time, I was barely able to move the same weights my friends from the gym class used with relative ease. Being able to _continue_ doing push-ups past 15 or 30 or whatever is an indicator of muscular endurance more than it is of explosive power. If you can do those types of exercises much longer than most people I’d think that would give you a real advantage in most team sports. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/53 "2011-10-23T02:06:36Z")
Toe to toe, bare fists, no holds barred. ah huh. ---
**Author:** ![Critical1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Critical1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Critical1)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/54 "2011-10-23T02:18:01Z")
we have kinda done this before on the Dope and the one sport that comes up as truly female dominated at the highest levels is rock climbing, which as has already been pointed out is less a test of strength and more about endurance. and given the top female climbers are also tiny women you begin to see how they do it. when I work out I use weights that weigh more than they do, but while climbing I am also hauling around over double the body weight of some of these women. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/55 "2011-10-23T02:48:20Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > we have kinda done this before on the Dope and the one sport that comes up as truly female dominated at the highest levels is rock climbing, which as has already been pointed out is less a test of strength and more about endurance. and given the top female climbers are also tiny women you begin to see how they do it. when I work out I use weights that weigh more than they do, but while climbing I am also hauling around over double the body weight of some of these women. Rock climbing is more technique than raw strength. You aren’t doing a pull-up over and over again to lift yourself up a wall. Look. unless you are Maria Sharapova, the typical man has about forty pounds and 6 inches in height on the typical woman. Let me put it this way. I’m an average size guy at 5’10" 190 lbs. Its only slightly more difficult for me to carry an average girl with a football across the goal line than if I were just carrying the football by itself. ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/56 "2011-10-23T02:57:40Z")
> [@Candyman74](#): > > Really? > > I guess it’s possible I’m fitter than I think I am. But I don’t feel very fit! I’ve never not been able to easily do 20 push-ups, though. > > Now pull-ups - they’re hard! Are you sure you are using good form? Up on your toes, chest touching ground? I wouldn’t call it impressive (for a male), and somebody who is training should be able to do it very easily, but I wouldn’t call it EASY. I wouldn’t expect an out of shape person to be able to do it, certainly. ---
**Author:** ![misterW](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@misterW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/misterW)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/57 "2011-10-23T03:02:29Z")
> [@Critical1](#): > > we have kinda done this before on the Dope and the one sport that comes up as truly female dominated at the highest levels is rock climbing, which as has already been pointed out is less a test of strength and more about endurance. and given the top female climbers are also tiny women you begin to see how they do it. when I work out I use weights that weigh more than they do, but while climbing I am also hauling around over double the body weight of some of these women. What? Since when is climbing dominated by females? I used to be into climbing and kept track of who top climbers were… and I don’t remember it being women. Lynn Hill has done some impressive things, but her most notable accomplishment was also one that was well suited to an individual with her stature. For a while she was I think the only one to climb one particular route…but she was not the top climber in the world. Women can do very well in climbing, but men still climb harder routes. There are certain moves that simply require ridiculous strength, that no amount of technique can make up for. ---
**Author:** ![robardin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/43a26b/32.png) [@robardin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robardin)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/58 "2011-10-23T13:15:44Z")
> [@hibernicus](#): > > As described, this exercise is trivially easy. I’ve been experimenting to try to figure out a version of it that would be difficult in some way, and give rise to a situation where a person would be unable to lift his head. But the dog came over and started licking my ear so I gave up. I just tried it again and was more or less pinned to the ground, so perhaps I’m not describing it well. Kneel with both knees (not one) on the ground, with your body in an L shape. Now bend at the waist to move your head to the ground with your hands behind your back. Your back should be mostly straight. If you do this by sitting on your heels and putting your head very close to your knees by curling your back then yeah, I guess it’s not that hard. Here’s a pic of [Muslims praying towards Mecca](http://www.thenutgraph.com/user_uploads/images/2009/01/16/HEAVENSSAKE_PRAY_AntonioMelina_ABr.jpg); imagine doing what the guy leading the prayers in white is doing, but without the hands placed on either side. (Some of the other prayers look like they’re curling their backs - I have no idea if this is “poor form” for Muslim prayers.) PS - I think the key is to put your hands behind your back BEFORE you put your head to the ground, that tends to force you to keep your back straight. If you kneel and put your head to the ground, and THEN put your hands behind your back, you probably end up curling your back. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/59 "2011-10-23T13:38:20Z")
> [@misterW](#): > > Are you sure you are using good form? Up on your toes, chest touching ground? Yes, I am sure. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422/60 "2011-10-23T14:05:20Z")
> [@kayaker](#): > > Why aren’t there any male/female mixed martial arts fights? AFAIK the only martial art where women can compete equally with men at most amateur levels is fencing, where up to a D, or maybe C-level you will see a proportionate number of women (that is, proportionate to those in the sport overall). But at the B and A-levels the number of men disproportionately exceeds that of women in the sport. The men as a group are just stronger, faster, and more accurate at touches than the women as a group, and unfortunately that’s all there is too it. I could have sworn Cecil and I worked on a column on this subject, but I cannot find it. It might have been something he just asked me to look into. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/girls-vs-boys-strength/600422.md?page=4)