# "Gitmo is Killing Me" -- Obama's Guantánamo **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 15, 2013, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-is-killing-me-obamas-guantanamo/655780 "2013-04-15T18:54:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-is-killing-me-obamas-guantanamo/655780/81 "2013-04-19T14:28:14Z")
I used effectively because the prohibition can be waived. From your link: > [@](#): > > Section 1028 prohibits the use of DoD funds to transfer noncitizen Guantánamo detainees to foreign countries. The prohibition can be waived if the Secretary of Defense, the Secretary of State, and the Director of National Intelligence (DNI) submit a certification waiver to Congress at least thirty days before the detainee transfer. I’m speaking of the detainees cleared for release. No one in the administration is working to get the waivers - not on any meaningful level at least. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-is-killing-me-obamas-guantanamo/655780/82 "2013-04-19T15:18:03Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > I’m speaking of the detainees cleared for release. No one in the administration is working to get the waivers - not on any meaningful level at least. Ah – for some reason I thought you were talking about transferring prisoners to the US for trial. Section 1027 completely prohibits the transfer of detainees to the US, with no waivers, no exceptions. That was my main point. I see what you’re saying that for those cleared for release to other countries can still be released if enough hoops are jumped through. I don’t deny that, but I do maintain that (a) the hoops are pretty significant and (b) countries don’t seem to have very much interest in taking these detainees. Sure, one can say that we need to be more convincing to get other countries to take these people, but I would add that Obama should also be more convincing to Republicans in order to get them to vote for closing tax loopholes for the rich. It’s very easy to say, but not easy to pull off. ---
**Author:** ![CoolHandCox](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/coolhandcox/32/16233_2.png) [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-is-killing-me-obamas-guantanamo/655780/83 "2013-04-19T17:20:26Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Ah – for some reason I thought you were talking about transferring prisoners to the US for trial. Section 1027 completely prohibits the transfer of detainees to the US, with no waivers, no exceptions. That was my main point. Agreed. > [@](#): > > I see what you’re saying that for those cleared for release to other countries can still be released if enough hoops are jumped through. I don’t deny that, but I do maintain that (a) the hoops are pretty significant and (b) countries don’t seem to have very much interest in taking these detainees. Sure, one can say that we need to be more convincing to get other countries to take these people, but I would add that Obama should also be more convincing to Republicans in order to get them to vote for closing tax loopholes for the rich. It’s very easy to say, but not easy to pull off. I agree with this, but my point is Obama quite trying to convince anyone. He’s not trying and losing, he’s just not trying. Guantanamo says these guys can be released. Republicans (and Obama signed it) said the DoD, Sec of State, DNI (Obama appointees) have to sign off on it before released…then nothing. I don’t see any convincing or working with those departments to get these guys released. I see effort with closing tax loopholes - I don’t see anything with getting detainees released other than blanket statemetns of “we’re committed to releasing the detainees.” The State Dept office tasked with this job has been shut down. I’m sure it’s going on on some level, but just a few low level guys, no power broker type guys to coordinate with all the departments; no one to bear any weight. That’s my frustration anyways, what I see as a lack of effort. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2013, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-is-killing-me-obamas-guantanamo/655780/84 "2013-04-19T17:56:50Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#): > > That’s my frustration anyways, what I see as a lack of effort. In fairness, I would assume that most countries who might be potential hosts to the detainees probably don’t want that fact advertised in the press. “Freedonia in talks with US to host Guantanamo detainees!” might not be the most welcome headline. ---
**Author:** ![o\_rion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/278dde/32.png) [@o\_rion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/o_rion)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2013, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-is-killing-me-obamas-guantanamo/655780/85 "2013-04-20T04:19:33Z")
From back up the thread a ways- " Presidents, regardless of whether their name is followed by an R or a D, find it convenient to have a place where they can keep certain people without having to bother with a trial. It’s flagrantly unconstitutional and a human rights abuse, but the last two Presidents have cared very little about things like that." Seems like for more than the last two presidencies, citizens ain’t gave a shit either. Fuckin tsk, y’know? citizens. Pfffft ---
**Author:** ![o\_rion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/278dde/32.png) [@o\_rion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/o_rion)\ **Post date:** [April 22, 2013, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-is-killing-me-obamas-guantanamo/655780/86 "2013-04-22T05:07:23Z")
while ‘citizans, pfft’ is a thing the implications of which reflect badly on u, I don’t want to convey the idear that I’m singling out my fellow u.s. citizens, cuzziss goes clear round the globe, its not peculiar to the usa. it misses no nation, and its not peculiar, this discussed abuse of representative power, to the federal level. Nor is it peculiar to what we sillilly call democracy, nor is it peculiar to governments but afflicts religions, splinter religions, churches, splinter churches, corps of the profit and non types, unions of the all types, associations, organizations and guilds, towns, colleges and high schools , neighborhoods, hoods n blocks, this ‘citizens, pfft’ thing, its a killer, and its so ubiquitous, if that’s not redundant, and if it wasn’t once, it won’t b again, its so ubiquitous, its a common Thread running through all these things, ,such a primary devil it could very well b The big daddy main devil, (cuz commonality indicates primacy in some things,) and its good to put a name to it and citizens, pfft is a good one. Another good name, little harsh- sounding but extremely apt, taking only a modicum of thought and a minute or two to arrive at, is ‘you just don’t give a fuck. you’re literally too ignorant and misguided and misdirected to.’ I know, right?, it sux. ---
**Author:** ![o\_rion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/278dde/32.png) [@o\_rion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/o_rion)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-is-killing-me-obamas-guantanamo/655780/87 "2013-04-27T04:06:04Z")
Hadda smile this morning, cuzz of a realization Of possibilities. Occurred to me might b some, Tryin to care about these guys in gitmo. Hohoho, grow the Fuck up, who cares, they’re guys Wearin robes and no matter what dude, they ain’t As good as Americans, right? No, the reason u care is because some Fuck And some other fux have agreed to representatively Wield a good portion of your personal power, and they Have weaponized that power, isay I say _abrogated_ biggern shit, biggern anthrax Powder in an envelope dropped off at a nursery, You see what I’m saying. It’s basically powerstructure insanely perp etuating Itself, and this latest asswipe in office, hereinafter aio, is just the latest Perpetrator of mayhem in your, yes Your, name. Been goin on a while. A weapon created, even Just your collective power weaponized, can And will b pointed in any ol direction. Yucky shit, y’know? Just a matter of time though. There are many ways of viewing the world. An interesting one to play with sometimes, is The worldview of the very, very top predators, a viewpoint Which sez, ruffly, there are three people in the world , and everybody else. Chances are reeeeeel good you’re ‘everybody else’. This stuff might b something u wanna check into, But yeah, that’s y its good to give a shit bout These guys. I mean technically, like u brush yer teeth. Just something gotta b looked after unless u want Consequences, and the rapidly steepening slipperry Slope of any govt official just tossin fuckers in Prison, torture, all that shit, thems consequences U don’t want, everybodyelse, fuckin trust me there. But warm n fuzzy care about these guys? All kindza good reasons to but cmon, pffft. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-is-killing-me-obamas-guantanamo/655780/88 "2013-04-27T04:36:27Z")
As poetry, it’s awful. But if you set it to an acoustic guitar and a tambourine, I bet it would kill at the Che Guava Juice Bar open mic night. ---
**Author:** ![o\_rion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/278dde/32.png) [@o\_rion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/o_rion)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-is-killing-me-obamas-guantanamo/655780/89 "2013-04-27T05:15:14Z")
Yeh, small screen. So, is it the tone or the content you find contemptible? I mean Cuz granted on the tone, my bad there. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-is-killing-me-obamas-guantanamo/655780/90 "2013-04-27T05:29:19Z")
Not contemptible, perhaps, but…difficult to make sense of? Slow down, and use a format we can comprehend. Grok, wysiwyg, e pleurabelle noonan? ---
**Author:** ![o\_rion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/278dde/32.png) [@o\_rion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/o_rion)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-is-killing-me-obamas-guantanamo/655780/91 "2013-04-27T05:57:10Z")
Grok. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 6:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-is-killing-me-obamas-guantanamo/655780/92 "2013-04-27T06:42:28Z")
> [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](#): > > The prisoners are hunger-striking – attempting to kill themselves. This is a fact. Here are four possible reasons: > > 1. To protest the mistreatment of their Qur’ans (this is their stated reason for the hunger strike) > 2. To protest their indefinite detention (this is the reason their lawyers have stated) > 3. To protest other mistreatment > 4. To simply die (at this point, the only way they’ll be able to leave Gitmo) > > All of these point to abuses. Am I missing something? > > You’re claiming that they’re “exaggerating and/or misrepresenting what is happening to them”. Is there evidence of this, other than prison officials saying so? And **even if they are** , it’s only to draw attention to their human rights, whereas if prison officials are lying, it’s to draw attention AWAY FROM their human rights. In San Jose a noted Vietnamese activist went on a hunger strike so that the city would name a area “Little Saigon”. I suppose you could call this " an abuse", but if so it’s pretty damn minor. So, indeed dudes go on hunger strikes for petty reasons. Would you have us let them starve? ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-is-killing-me-obamas-guantanamo/655780/93 "2013-04-27T12:21:53Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Bottom line, almost no America would care in the slightest if he’s having random innocent foreigners regularly raped, strangled to death and sold as dog food, as long as he keeps it out of the media. This is the same country that re-elected Bush the Torturer, a nation of amoral scum. Out of curiosity, which nation is particularly superior to us? Are you applying there? There is no solution for Gitmo. It is neither travesty nor tragedy. The guilty and the innocent there are casualties of the reality that no system which simultaneously advances justice and self protection can do so without collateral inequity. If nothing else, at least it helped Mr Obama learn a valuable lesson about being too idealistic in advance of being the one who actually has to make decisions. It does not appear that his more liberal supporters have learned the same lessons, but then those of us interested in self-preservation for our general approach to justice and equality as a nation are not likely to help elect the truly naive liberals. It’s probably helpful to have a few really naive babblers on the far left to keep the rest of us honest, as long as they don’t actually get to make any decisions. 😉 We’d be outta business as a nation if we elected too many idealists, and the world left would not pleasantly evolve into Shangri La. The terrorists would then actually win. There isn’t a good or fair or due-process way to fight terrorists and pirates and the like who operate outside of any reasonable structure. You just have to plink them when you find them and hope the folks you put in charge of executing them unilaterally are basically good guys. Mr Bush’s stupid alternative of prosecuting wars against entire nations creates even more collateral damage. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-is-killing-me-obamas-guantanamo/655780/94 "2013-04-27T15:47:00Z")
The strategy of killing instead of capturing has been the best way to quiet concerns about due process. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-is-killing-me-obamas-guantanamo/655780/95 "2013-04-27T18:08:54Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > It is neither travesty nor tragedy. Garbage, it’s both. It demonstrates the malice, stupidity and amorality of America. > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > The guilty and the innocent there are casualties of the reality that no system which simultaneously advances justice and self protection can do so without collateral inequity. Gitmo has nothing to do with either justice or self protection. It’s about greed, stupidity and cruelty. > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > The terrorists would then actually win. They have won. If for no other reason than we are terrorists just as much as the people we label terrorists; we just have better weapons and more troops. > [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > There isn’t a good or fair or due-process way to fight terrorists and pirates and the like who operate outside of any reasonable structure. Gitmo isn’t about fighting terrorists. It’s about American terrorism, not fighting terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-is-killing-me-obamas-guantanamo/655780/96 "2013-04-27T18:49:02Z")
It takes a special talent to actually exaggerate how wrong we have been. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/858c86/32.png) [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Made_French_Toast_For_You)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2013, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-is-killing-me-obamas-guantanamo/655780/97 "2013-04-27T19:40:38Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > In San Jose a noted Vietnamese activist went on a hunger strike so that the city would name a area “Little Saigon”. I suppose you could call this " an abuse", but if so it’s pretty damn minor. > > So, indeed dudes go on hunger strikes for petty reasons. Okay. But the Guantanamo hunger strikes are not based on petty reasoning. > [@](#): > > Would you have us let them starve? I would have our government free those individuals that are not convicted of crimes, and try those that are, before they starve to death. As for hunger-striking in general: I would respect the strikers’ right to protest, and not torture them with forced feedings. ETA: The number of prisoners on hunger strike now number 100. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-is-killing-me-obamas-guantanamo/655780/98 "2013-04-28T19:33:45Z")
> [@I\_Made\_French\_Toast\_For\_You](#): > > Okay. But the Guantanamo hunger strikes are not based on petty reasoning. > > I would have our government free those individuals that are not convicted of crimes, and try those that are, before they starve to death. As for hunger-striking in general: I would respect the strikers’ right to protest, and not torture them with forced feedings. > > . How do you know? So, other than releasing them, your solution is let them die?:dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-is-killing-me-obamas-guantanamo/655780/99 "2013-04-28T20:40:35Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, other than releasing them, your solution is let them die?:dubious: So the only option they have besides a lifetime of imprisonment and abuse at our hands is death? That makes death by starvation actually look like a reasonable choice. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2013, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-is-killing-me-obamas-guantanamo/655780/100 "2013-04-28T22:33:23Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > So the only option they have besides a lifetime of imprisonment and abuse at our hands is death? That makes death by starvation actually look like a reasonable choice. Yes. These are the living collateral damages of trying to bring order to large societies, and no amount of your idealistic hand-wringing will change that. Guys like Willie Horton wreck it for everybody, and in the political arena guys like Michael Dukakis stand as examples of what happens when idealists get their legacies ruined by the Willie Hortons. There’s no chance President Obama is going to risk besmirching his legacy by trying to decide which of these guys were just looking for honest work in the wrong place and which are going to be the next Islamic nutcase to plot an attack. It’s not fair, but there isn’t a better system at a large scale; indeed most nations with power anywhere near as great as ours are even crappier at some of these messy details. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-is-killing-me-obamas-guantanamo/655780.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-is-killing-me-obamas-guantanamo/655780.md?page=6)