# Gitmo will never be shut down now?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-will-never-be-shut-down-now/544905
**Category:** Great Debates
**Created:** [June 29, 2010, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-will-never-be-shut-down-now/544905 "2010-06-29T05:59:44Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2010, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-will-never-be-shut-down-now/544905/41 "2010-06-30T07:12:15Z")
You think Afghanistan has "means to forbid the United States from operating a prison there?
Hamid Karzai, the puppet installed by the USA and who was found to have run a fraudulent election even though only a small percent of the population even bothered to take part? He’s got all the legitimacy of President of Thieu in South Vietnam.
You really, badly have to want to believe in Obama to not see the truth here: Bagram is Gitmo except bigger and at Bagram there is no nothing, including law, oversight, rules - you make your own rules up.
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### Author:  [@Camus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Camus)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2010, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-will-never-be-shut-down-now/544905/42 "2010-06-30T09:21:52Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> Supposedly. Given that they were secret in the first place I see no reason to assume that they didn’t just build other equally secret ones elsewhere.
The more time passes since 9/11, the harder it is (and has been) for allied/friendly governments to agree to have secret detention facilities for the US. No friendly Western government nowadays wants to weather the domestic political firestorm that having a secret US detention facility would one day create. The US could barely convince friendly countries to take in a handful of low risk Uighurs from Gitmo.
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### Author:  [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2010, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-will-never-be-shut-down-now/544905/43 "2010-06-30T10:00:11Z")
> [@Camus](#):
>
> The more time passes since 9/11, the harder it is (and has been) for allied/friendly governments to agree to have secret detention facilities for the US. No friendly Western government nowadays wants to weather the domestic political firestorm that having a secret US detention facility would one day create. The US could barely convince friendly countries to take in a handful of low risk Uighurs from Gitmo.
Then perhaps they haven’t been told what they are doing. Or perhaps any such facilities are on US territory somewhere now.
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### Author:  [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2010, 10:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-will-never-be-shut-down-now/544905/44 "2010-06-30T10:00:46Z")
> [@Camus](#):
>
> The more time passes since 9/11, the harder it is (and has been) for allied/friendly governments to agree to have secret detention facilities for the US. No friendly Western government nowadays wants to weather the domestic political firestorm that having a secret US detention facility would one day create. The US could barely convince friendly countries to take in a handful of low risk Uighurs from Gitmo.
The problem with the Uighurs is that China objected to them being released. It didn’t have anything to do with domestic firestorms or international criticism. It had everything to do with not pissing off China.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2010, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-will-never-be-shut-down-now/544905/45 "2010-06-30T12:28:12Z")
> [@](#):
>
> You think Afghanistan has "means to forbid the United States from operating a prison there?
>
> Hamid Karzai, the puppet installed by the USA and who was found to have run a fraudulent election even though only a small percent of the population even bothered to take part? He’s got all the legitimacy of President of Thieu in South Vietnam.
>
> You really, badly have to want to believe in Obama to not see the truth here: Bagram is Gitmo except bigger and at Bagram there is no nothing, including law, oversight, rules - you make your own rules up.
And you think Afghanistan is a stable situation? That five years from now Karzai will still be nominally in power but dependant on American forces? And American forces will still be in Afghanistan running prisons?
Forget five years, there’s a strong chance that won’t be true in one year.
A change in Afghanistan’s government is pretty much a sure thing. So Bagram’s days are numbered. We’re either going to pull out of Afghanistan entirely or a government will emerge which will take control over Bagram.
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### Author:  [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)
#### Post date: [June 30, 2010, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-will-never-be-shut-down-now/544905/46 "2010-06-30T15:00:34Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#):
>
> “Everything” was not secret at some point. Most things have never been declared secret. And it’s not unreasonable to suspect that they are secretly still doing something that they have been demonstrated to have done secretly in the past.
Eh. I quoted your cite. If you’ve got a better one proving that these prisons still operate, lets see it. Until then, your speculation is worthless in this forum, although it certainly would not be in IMHO, if you care to post in a thread there.
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### Author:  [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-will-never-be-shut-down-now/544905/47 "2010-07-03T18:34:40Z")
I don’t know anyone on the left who isn’t pissed off that the Gitmo prison is still open, and doesn’t feel betrayed. On the other hand, I see the incredible push back and fear mongering that happens every time it comes up. Even the idea of trying them in the US caused a shit storm. I wish Obama would end DADT and close Gitmo and just say fuck you to conservatives.
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### Author:  [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)
#### Post date: [July 3, 2010, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-will-never-be-shut-down-now/544905/48 "2010-07-03T18:37:18Z")
> [@treis](#):
>
> The problem with the Uighur is that China objected to them being released. It didn’t have anything to do with domestic firestorms or international criticism. It had everything to do with not pissing off China.
I’m sorry, but every time I hear Uighurs I think of skinny-assed ,white kids with baggy pants, baseball caps tilted sideways, using out of date, black lingo.
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### Author:  [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)
#### Post date: [July 5, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-will-never-be-shut-down-now/544905/49 "2010-07-05T18:13:19Z")
> [@Shodan](#):
>
> No, many of those on the left who complained most loudly about Gitmo no longer seem to believe as fervently in the Constitution as they said they did, now that it is one of their own with the keys in his hip pocket.
>
> It is a question of emphasis - Gitmo and indefinite detention was a horrible violation of human rights, subject to loud denunciation two or three years ago. Now, not so much.
>
> Regards,
> Shodan
Gitmo and the indefinite detention is a violation of human rights. It is demeaning to the country and a rallying point for Al Qeada. I was pro Obama. Speak for yourself. Plenty of Dems are unhappy with the lack of action.
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### Author:  [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)
#### Post date: [July 5, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-will-never-be-shut-down-now/544905/50 "2010-07-05T19:14:27Z")
Wasn’t it closed in January? I could have sworn that Obama signed an executive order shortly after he was inaugurated ordering the prison closed in one year. Did that not happen? 😉
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### Author:  [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)
#### Post date: [July 5, 2010, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-will-never-be-shut-down-now/544905/51 "2010-07-05T20:30:59Z")
> [@pkbites](#):
>
> What’s “really” going on is Bush isn’t President any more, therefore the bitching about Gitmo has stopped as has the motivation to close it. Duh.:rolleyes:
Bush _established_ the place. The fact that it even exists is 100% on his shoulders. Obama is finding it harder than expected to close it. The former is somewhat more damning than the latter.
That being said, I for one am disturbed that it still exists - but then, there’s no lack of messes to clean up, is there?
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### Author:  [@The\_Tooth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tooth)
#### Post date: [July 5, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-will-never-be-shut-down-now/544905/52 "2010-07-05T21:09:13Z")
> [@jtgain](#):
>
> Wasn’t it closed in January? I could have sworn that Obama signed an executive order shortly after he was inaugurated ordering the prison closed in one year. Did that not happen? 😉
No, too many Republicans were scared by the idea. Either that or they just cried about accused criminals receiving trials out of pure obstructionism. Hard to say if Republicans are really such cowards or if they’re just pretending because they lost in 2008.
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### Author:  [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)
#### Post date: [July 5, 2010, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-will-never-be-shut-down-now/544905/53 "2010-07-05T22:55:30Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> And you think Afghanistan is a stable situation? That five years from now Karzai will still be nominally in power but dependant on American forces? And American forces will still be in Afghanistan running prisons?
>
> Forget five years, there’s a strong chance that won’t be true in one year.
>
> A change in Afghanistan’s government is pretty much a sure thing. So Bagram’s days are numbered. We’re either going to pull out of Afghanistan entirely or a government will emerge which will take control over Bagram.
You’re kidding right? None of that is going to happen. And half a dozen posts above you didn’t even know the prison existed.
It’s bigger than Gitmo, it’s subject to next to zero legal restriction, there is zero oversight. It’s the dream scenario - which is why it’s getting bigger and bigger.
Yep, under that great humanitarian President Obama - do yourself a favour and open your eyes. Nothing changes.
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2010, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-will-never-be-shut-down-now/544905/54 "2010-07-06T02:17:08Z")
> [@](#):
>
> You’re kidding right? None of that is going to happen. And half a dozen posts above you didn’t even know the prison existed.
>
> It’s bigger than Gitmo, it’s subject to next to zero legal restriction, there is zero oversight. It’s the dream scenario - which is why it’s getting bigger and bigger.
>
> Yep, under that great humanitarian President Obama - do yourself a favour and open your eyes. Nothing changes.
Besides, it’s not like we need Guatanamo. If we wanted we’d just move those prisoners to our prisons in Iraq.
No, wait, the Iraqi government took those over.
Well, we’ll just send them to our prisons in Romania instead.
No, the Romanian government shut those down.
There’s always room in our prisons in Poland.
Darn, the Polish government closed those down.
But you’re right. We can always send them to Bagram. Because there is absolutely no chance whatsoever that the Afghani government will ever shut that prison down. It would be unprecedented. Especially what with the stable government institutions for which Afghanistan has been reknowned for decades.
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### Author:  [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-will-never-be-shut-down-now/544905/55 "2010-07-06T02:54:35Z")
Lest we hear another “now all libs are quiet about Guantanamo”, I wish to express my severe condemnation in very loud terms, of how Obama has handled the Guantanamo issue. There is a place in the constitution and, to my mind, justice and fairness, for indefinite detention, but there needs to be due process given. So far, I am not convinced Obama has done so. For that, I condemn him and his policies.
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### Author:  [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2010, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-will-never-be-shut-down-now/544905/56 "2010-07-06T06:47:23Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#):
>
> But you’re right. We can always send them to Bagram. Because there is absolutely no chance whatsoever that the Afghani government will ever shut that prison down. It would be unprecedented. Especially what with the stable government institutions for which Afghanistan has been reknowned for decades.
Trying to filter the sarcasm; Bagram will be shut down because . . . they were in Poland and Romania? Is that the reassuring logic?
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### Author:  [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2010, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-will-never-be-shut-down-now/544905/57 "2010-07-06T13:59:54Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#):
>
> Trying to filter the sarcasm; Bagram will be shut down because . . . they were in Poland and Romania? Is that the reassuring logic?
Now you’re not even trying to follow along.
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### Author:  [@CoolHandCox](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CoolHandCox)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2010, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-will-never-be-shut-down-now/544905/58 "2010-07-06T14:54:46Z")
> [@PrettyVacant](#):
>
> Trying to filter the sarcasm; Bagram will be shut down because . . . they were in Poland and Romania? Is that the reassuring logic?
For the record, the detention facility part of Bagram will be turned over to the Afghans this year. [Article from January 2010 discussing.](http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6081IN20100109)
There are about 30 non-afghan nationals at Bagram. They just fought to have habeas corpus rights applied there so they could challenge their detention in US courts, the Gov’t fought to have that right denied. The Gov’t won (on appeal). Bagram detainees have less rights than Guantanamo detainees and the Gov’t is not wanting that to change.
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### Author:  [@PrettyVacant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PrettyVacant)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-will-never-be-shut-down-now/544905/59 "2010-07-06T16:41:04Z")
> [@CoolHandCox](#):
>
> For the record, the detention facility part of Bagram will be turned over to the Afghans this year. [Article from January 2010 discussing.](http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6081IN20100109)
>
> There are about 30 non-afghan nationals at Bagram. They just fought to have habeas corpus rights applied there so they could challenge their detention in US courts, the Gov’t fought to have that right denied. The Gov’t won (on appeal). Bagram detainees have less rights than Guantanamo detainees and the Gov’t is not wanting that to change.
I appreciate the factual information. Thanks.
For obvious reasons, I’m no more optimistic about human rights under a Afghan government than under US. Somehow it’s not reassuring to hand control from the US to a puppet regime. From Wikipedia:
> [@](#):
>
> The Bonn Agreement of 2001 established the Afghan Independent Human Rights Commission (AIHRC) as a national human rights institution to protect and promote human rights and to investigate human rights abuses and war crimes. The Afghanistan Constitution of 2004 entrenched the existence of the AIHRC. **While the ongoing turmoil, violence and reconstruction efforts often make it difficult to get an accurate sense of what is going on, various reports from NGOs have accused various branches of the Afghan government of engaging in human rights violations**.
My bolding.
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### Author:  [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)
#### Post date: [July 6, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/gitmo-will-never-be-shut-down-now/544905/60 "2010-07-06T16:44:14Z")
> [@ralph124c](#):
>
> Obama has finally realized that many of the detainees are ruthless killers..25 ones released to Saudi Arabia are now back in Al Queda. So, he has a tiger by the tail. Many of the others cannot be sent back to their home countries-they face immediate execution. Morocco will take theirs back-but they will not guarantee that their returnees won’t be executed.
> Welcome to the world, Obama.
That conclusion is unsupported. Back in Al Qeda implies you know they once were. You do not. Nor do you know why they decided to fight us ,if they really did.
Put any man in jail, waterboard and torture them for years and then let them go. What would you do? The fact that ,if true, that they are enemies now should be expected. I would want revenge and I am sure my family would too.
Your post indicates we have really screwed up their lives. I am not proud of that or what we did in Gitmo. I expect more from America.
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