# Giulaini Search Warrant Question **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [April 28, 2021, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giulaini-search-warrant-question/940963 "2021-04-28T17:32:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![dolphinboy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dolphinboy/32/330_2.png) [@dolphinboy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dolphinboy)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giulaini-search-warrant-question/940963/21 "2021-04-28T18:46:28Z")
Any idea what crimes might have been committed by Individual Number 1 that Giuliani might be privy to or involved with? I assume most of the ongoing investigations of DJT are about his business practices and/or his tax “avoidance” strategies, which presumably Rudy didn’t have a lot to do with. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giulaini-search-warrant-question/940963/22 "2021-04-28T19:03:57Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > This may be a pretty typical prosecutorial squeeze in exchange for immunity (or a deal) as a way to get to the larger, vaguely orange-hued fish. Wild speculation. Media reports clearly link this warrant to a criminal investigation into unregistered lobbying by Mr. Giuliani himself on behalf of Ukranians. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tired_and_Cranky)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giulaini-search-warrant-question/940963/23 "2021-04-28T20:05:38Z")
@Fotheringay-Phipps has a good take. Prosecutors also likely have volumes of information about him from other persons being investigated so even if he, let’s say, deleted some emails, all the recipients still have them, not to mention the email providers who likely have backups. . > [@Deeg](#): > > My money would be on Rudy thinking he is so much smarter than everybody else that he has them hoodwinked and they’d never think to search his home. More likely, he is assuming that because he is a lawyer, prosecutors would give him some deference so as not to be accused of violating attorney-client privilege. As with Michael Cohen though, there is the potential that his claims of attorney-client privilege will be deemed specious. > [@Grrr](#): > > I think it’s a combination of losing his marbles and a huge dose of hubris. This too. > [@Moriarty](#): > > While the answer to that is ‘no’, it is possible for the feds to obtain a court order to record phone calls without the knowledge of the user. I have never heard of feds getting a wire tap order with the knowledge of the user. > [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > Most of the investigative tools the feds are using against him were pioneered by Rudy. Giuliani was a good prosecutor but I’m not aware of any of his particular prosecutorial innovations other than, apparently, the “perp walk.” He hasn’t been arrested so that hasn’t been used against him. I’m not sure what else you are talking about here. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giulaini-search-warrant-question/940963/24 "2021-04-28T20:13:04Z")
> [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](#): > > More likely, he is assuming that because he is a lawyer, prosecutors would give him some deference so as not to be accused of violating attorney-client privilege. As with Michael Cohen though, there is the potential that his claims of attorney-client privilege will be deemed specious. That’s kinda’ what I meant by being protected by “the system”. Perhaps a poor choice of words on my part. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giulaini-search-warrant-question/940963/25 "2021-04-28T20:14:21Z")
> [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](#): > > Giuliani was a good prosecutor but I’m not aware of any of his particular prosecutorial innovations other than, apparently, the “perp walk.” He hasn’t been arrested so that hasn’t been used against him. I’m not sure what else you are talking about here. Giuliani was among the first (he has falsely claimed _the_ first) official in the Justice Department to recognize the power of the RICO statute that had gone unused for more than a decade after its enactment. Basically, building a case by presenting evidence (like informants) to a court to secure warrants (like tapping) and using the fruits of those warrants to secure more warrants (like search), building a ladder to to an indictment that might be years down the road. ---
**Author:** ![OttoDaFe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ottodafe/32/356_2.png) [@OttoDaFe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OttoDaFe)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giulaini-search-warrant-question/940963/26 "2021-04-28T20:28:34Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > If he did something wrong, and let’s assume he did, he knows better than most how to bury the evidence. Maybe a year ago he might not of destroyed all of the documents, emails and disk drives, but he’s had plenty of time to deal with it. > [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](#): > > Prosecutors also likely have volumes of information about him from other persons being investigated so even if he, let’s say, deleted some emails, all the recipients still have them, not to mention the email providers who likely have backups. According to one of the talking heads I was just listening to, the fact that content existed and was deleted can infer (if not prove) criminal intent. I imagine this would especially be the case if said content could be obtained elsewhere, such as a recipient or provider. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giulaini-search-warrant-question/940963/27 "2021-04-28T20:33:32Z")
“Spoliation.” For those who are interested, here’s NY State’s law on the matter: > **[Spoliation Of Evidence, Even If Done In The Normal Course Of Business, Is...](https://fhnylaw.com/spoliation-evidence-even-done-normal-course-business-sanctionable/)** > > An important part of any litigation is documentary discovery. As any litigant can attest, especially in complex matters, documents form the foundation of discovery plans and strategies, and, more significantly, ... In part … > When a person or company withholds, alters, hides, or destroys evidence relevant to the litigation, either intentionally or negligently, it is considered “spoliation” of evidence and can lead to sanctions against the party that is guilty of spoliation including, but not limited to, dismissal of the action, striking a pleading, assessing monetary penalties, or permitting the jury to take a negative inference against the spoliating party. The negative inference at trial can be very damaging to a party because it permits the jury to infer that there was something to hide (e.g., the party had a “guilty conscience”) and the missing evidence is unavailable because it negatively impacted that party’s affirmative case or defense. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giulaini-search-warrant-question/940963/28 "2021-04-28T20:42:41Z")
And it’s amazing how hard it is to completely delete something from a device and not leave some trace (or a complete copy) somewhere in its guts or in the cloud. Or have I just been watching too many Scandinavian cop shows? ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giulaini-search-warrant-question/940963/29 "2021-04-28T20:50:13Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I don’t think there’s much chance you will (or were ever going to) get any explicit evidence of Giuliani saying “let’s do this illegal act”. Rather, the case against him would be comprised of a huge amount of texts and emails and documents which combined would paint a picture of what he was doing. Oh, I think if you just set up a podium at a landscaping company and got him rambling in front of a crowd with MAGA signs, he’d lose track and say all the things he shouldn’t in the first half hour… ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giulaini-search-warrant-question/940963/30 "2021-04-28T21:26:36Z")
> [@digs](#): > > Oh, I think if you just set up a podium at a landscaping company and got him rambling in front of a crowd with MAGA signs, he’d lose track and say all the things he shouldn’t in the first half hour… We can’t ever forget how utterly bizarre he was in the latter days of the Trumpian empire. Giuliani isn’t stupid, but he’s also not rational–and any prediction of his behavior that’s predicated on what would be done by someone in full possession of their faculties is a flawed prediction. ---
**Author:** ![Moriarty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/moriarty/32/49_2.png) [@Moriarty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Moriarty)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giulaini-search-warrant-question/940963/31 "2021-04-28T22:19:02Z")
> [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](#): > > I have never heard of feds getting a wire tap order with the knowledge of the user. Nor have I. I was just trying to answer the question about whether they could tap a phone without a court order. No, the feds can’t do that. But (and perhaps this is self evident) getting a court order doesn’t mean anybody being investigated is aware of the phone tap. … From what I understand, Rudy is quite the active drunk (there’s a story somewhere about a midday interview, where he’s slurping Bloody Marys with his fly unzipped). I wouldn’t be surprised if he’s also got some sort of cash flow issues, as he’s probably had a few glimpses of the high life and may be trying to continue the opulence. This is all conjecture by me, but those traits might explain his descent into criminal behavior. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giulaini-search-warrant-question/940963/32 "2021-04-28T22:36:24Z")
> [@DavidNRockies](#): > > This may be a pretty typical prosecutorial squeeze in exchange for immunity (or a deal) as a way to get to the larger, vaguely orange-hued fish. “Vaguely orange-hued”? Individual 1 has a stronger orange hue than a Satsuma tangerine. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giulaini-search-warrant-question/940963/33 "2021-04-28T22:45:34Z")
He’s an Orange Gruffy. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giulaini-search-warrant-question/940963/34 "2021-04-28T22:50:27Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > > [@DavidNRockies](#): > > > > This may be a pretty typical prosecutorial squeeze in exchange for immunity (or a deal) as a way to get to the larger, vaguely orange-hued fish. > > “Vaguely orange-hued”? Individual 1 has a stronger orange hue than a Satsuma tangerine. 😃 That’s really an excellent reminder that – what with it being 2021 and all – I can turn the color saturation on all my TVs back to their pre-2017 levels 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giulaini-search-warrant-question/940963/35 "2021-04-28T22:50:45Z")
> [@Moriarty](#): > > > [@Tired\_and\_Cranky](#): > > > > I have never heard of feds getting a wire tap order with the knowledge of the user. > > Nor have I. I was just trying to answer the question about whether they could tap a phone without a court order. No, the feds can’t do that. Just a quick reminder on the history of secret wiretaps in modern times, > **[Bush Lets U.S. Spy on Callers Without Courts (Published 2005)](https://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/16/politics/bush-lets-us-spy-on-callers-without-courts.html)** > > National Security Agency officials privately voice concern about legality of eavesdropping on Americans and others inside United States without court-approved warrants, as secretly authorized by Pres Bush in wake of 9/11 attacks; at issue is NSA's... > **[U.S., British intelligence mining data from nine U.S. Internet companies in...](https://www.washingtonpost.com/investigations/us-intelligence-mining-data-from-nine-us-internet-companies-in-broad-secret-program/2013/06/06/3a0c0da8-cebf-11e2-8845-d970ccb04497_story.html)** > > U.S. intelligence has access to the servers of nine internet companies in as part of top-secret effort ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giulaini-search-warrant-question/940963/36 "2021-04-28T23:00:52Z")
> [@dolphinboy](#): > > Rudy is a renowned prosecutor. He was once. Lin Wood and Sidney Powell were once lawyers with good reputations, too. ---
**Author:** ![Bootb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19b73/32.png) [@Bootb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bootb)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giulaini-search-warrant-question/940963/37 "2021-04-28T23:26:26Z")
> [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](#): > > And it’s amazing how hard it is to completely delete something from a device and not leave some trace (or a complete copy) somewhere in its guts or in the cloud. Or have I just been watching too many Scandinavian cop shows? There are programs designed to completely obliterate any trace of a certain file. But the average computer user is fairly unlikely to know that such programs exist. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [April 28, 2021, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giulaini-search-warrant-question/940963/38 "2021-04-28T23:47:36Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > There are programs designed to completely obliterate any trace of a certain file. As far as I know, these programs are limited to local storage (your own devices). Think about text message contents - you can delete it off your phone but the recipient has their own copy and the SMS provider might keep a copy of the message content for anywhere from a few hours to three months. And if you have your old phone in some drawer, copies of all of your old messages might still be on it. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2021, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giulaini-search-warrant-question/940963/39 "2021-04-29T07:13:37Z")
> [@Bootb](#): > > There are programs designed to completely obliterate any trace of a certain file. But the average computer user is fairly unlikely to know that such programs exist. I’d be surprised if Rudy knows the Recycle Bin exists. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [April 29, 2021, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giulaini-search-warrant-question/940963/40 "2021-04-29T10:52:19Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I’d be surprised if Rudy knows the Recycle Bin exists. - As a Republican, he refused to recycle just to own the libs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giulaini-search-warrant-question/940963.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giulaini-search-warrant-question/940963.md?page=3)