# Giuliani buggered out of Iraq Study Group to give $$$ speeches
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-buggered-out-of-iraq-study-group-to-give-speeches/408634
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [June 19, 2007, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-buggered-out-of-iraq-study-group-to-give-speeches/408634 "2007-06-19T19:54:26Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2007, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-buggered-out-of-iraq-study-group-to-give-speeches/408634/1 "2007-06-19T19:54:26Z")
[Here’s the Newsday story](http://www.newsday.com/news/local/longisland/ny-usrudy0619,0,2577021,print.story):
> [@](#):
>
> Rudolph Giuliani’s membership on an elite Iraq study panel came to an abrupt end last spring after he failed to show up for a single official meeting of the group, causing the panel’s top Republican to give him a stark choice: either attend the meetings or quit, several sources said.
>
> Giuliani left the Iraq Study Group last May after just two months, walking away from a chance to make up for his lack of foreign policy credentials on the top issue in the 2008 race, the Iraq war.
>
> He cited “previous time commitments” in a letter explaining his decision to quit, and a look at his schedule suggests why – the sessions at times conflicted with Giuliani’s lucrative speaking tour that garnered him $11.4 million in 14 months.
>
> Giuliani failed to show up for a pair of two-day sessions that occurred during his tenure, the sources said – and both times, they conflicted with paid public appearances shown on his recent financial disclosure. Giuliani quit the group during his busiest stretch in 2006, when he gave 20 speeches in a single month that brought in $1.7 million.
>
> On one day the panel gathered in Washington – May 18, 2006 – Giuliani delivered a $100,000 speech on leadership at an Atlanta business awards breakfast. Later that day, he attended a $100-a-ticket Atlanta political fundraiser for conservative ally Ralph Reed, whom Giuliani hoped would provide a major boost to his presidential campaign.
>
> The month before, Giuliani skipped the session to give the April 12 keynote speech at an economic conference in South Korea for $200,000, his financial disclosure shows.
>
> Giuliani’s campaign said that the former New York mayor did participate in Iraq Study Group activities but refused Newsday’s repeated requests to explain how.
Here’s a candidate whose big selling point is national security, but he doesn’t actually _know anything about it_. And he passes up an ideal chance to learn, in order to make a bunch of money.
Yeah, _that_’s the sort of President I want.
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2007, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-buggered-out-of-iraq-study-group-to-give-speeches/408634/2 "2007-06-19T20:14:12Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly]
…Yeah, _that_’s the sort of President I want.
[/QUOTE]
Do I detect a note of sarcasm?
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### Author:  [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2007, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-buggered-out-of-iraq-study-group-to-give-speeches/408634/3 "2007-06-19T20:14:50Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly]
Here’s a candidate whose big selling point is national security, but he doesn’t actually _know anything about it_.
[/QUOTE]
This is electoral politics. Lack of a formal credential does not equate to ignorance. If it did, there is no possible way that Bill Clinton should have been allowed to become president, given his rather lean expertise in this area in 1992. Same with Bush in 2000, Reagan in 1980, Carter in 1976, or countless others I can name.
[QUOTE=RTFirefly]
And he passes up an ideal chance to learn, in order to make a bunch of money.
[/QUOTE]
That assumes that it was an ideal chance to learn. Given the makeup of the group and its rather pedestrian conclusions, I don’t accept either one of these as a given either.
Look, had I been assigned to the Iraq Study Group, I probably would have gone to the meetings. However, I’m kind of geekish that way. Giuliani had other considerations in mind, one of which may have well been the desire not to be associated in the end with a commission that was controversial, and whose work wouldn’t have been his.
In any case, not a very big deal to me. Had he stuck around doing little to no work and then claimed some sort of authorship, then there would be scandal in my mind.
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### Author:  [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2007, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-buggered-out-of-iraq-study-group-to-give-speeches/408634/4 "2007-06-19T20:15:16Z")
Yeah, we all know that him attending that study group or not really decided whether or not you’d vote for him.
And I’m sure said study group would _realllly_ suddenly make him experienced in regard to foreign relations. Most of our candidates have zero real foreign relations experience. The most experienced is probably Hillary since she was first lady and thus did some hand shaking with Bill, but by and large none of them are former diplomats or particularly adept at the kind of foreign relations that the President does.
The POTUS is the Chief Diplomat of the United States, unless you’ve worked as an ambassador you don’t really get similar experience in the Senate or House, even if you’re on a foreign relations committee.
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### Author:  [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2007, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-buggered-out-of-iraq-study-group-to-give-speeches/408634/5 "2007-06-19T20:19:22Z")
The prez selects the sec of state plus a huge cabinet to help him. No one has experience that qualifies them to be prez. It is a crap shoot. Vote for the best and hope you get lucky.
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### Author:  [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2007, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-buggered-out-of-iraq-study-group-to-give-speeches/408634/6 "2007-06-19T20:20:23Z")
Well, yeah, but he accepted the position. If he were motivated by a desire “not to be associated…with a commission that was controversial…” he had the option of simply saying “No”. Which leaves the dark suspicion amongst his many detractors that he simply wanted to drape the mantle over his shoulders, but without affecting his own agenda. The letter sweater would look good, but suiting up and playing, a bit too much trouble.
“Feh!” as they say in Lubbock.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2007, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-buggered-out-of-iraq-study-group-to-give-speeches/408634/7 "2007-06-19T20:43:26Z")
Well, sure. But the people on the commission do tend to be busy folks, even the ones in their retirement. Most of them had multiple irons in the fire at the time of their appointment to the group.
So the explanation that there were meeting constraints rings pretty true, and we see how it was handled. Now, was it handled properly from the perspective of someone trying to build a network of support for a presidential run?
Perhaps.
In any case, given that the conclusions of that group weren’t particularly praiseworthy from my point of view, the fact that someone didn’t work overmuch on the group doesn’t hurt them in my eyes.
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2007, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-buggered-out-of-iraq-study-group-to-give-speeches/408634/8 "2007-06-19T20:46:16Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
This is electoral politics. Lack of a formal credential does not equate to ignorance.
[/quote]
Who said anything about lack of a formal credential?
> [@](#):
>
> That assumes that it was an ideal chance to learn. Given the makeup of the group and its rather pedestrian conclusions, I don’t accept either one of these as a given either.
At a minimum, he would certainly have had excellent access to the ISG’s staff, who probably knew a lot more than most of the committee members. He could have learned a great deal from them about a volatile part of the world that will occupy our next President far too much, now that our current President has occupied it far too long.
> [@](#):
>
> Look, had I been assigned to the Iraq Study Group, I probably would have gone to the meetings. However, I’m kind of geekish that way. Giuliani had other considerations in mind,
Here’s the deal with a commission like that: sure, the staff does the heavy lifting. But the members of the commission are the ones who have to make decisions at intervals along the way, to guide the staff in which directions to go. If you’re not there, you can’t help make the decisions. And it helps if the persons invested with the power of decisiveness learn _something_ about what the staff is doing in their name, in order to help make decent decisions. But like you say, Giuliani had other considerations in mind.
> [@](#):
>
> one of which may have well been the desire not to be associated in the end with a commission that was controversial,
What was controversial about it? The Broderists (including Broder Himself, of course) were falling over themselves in applauding their exercise in bipartisanship and comity. And as **'luc** has reminded us, he agreed to be on the ISG in the first place, then had to be pushed off. It wasn’t like he resigned; he just gave speeches elsewhere and missed meetings.
> [@](#):
>
> In any case, not a very big deal to me. Had he stuck around doing little to no work and then claimed some sort of authorship, then there would be scandal in my mind.
This isn’t a _scandal_ in the standard sense. I’m not claiming fraud, plaigarism, obstruction of justice, or any of that stuff.
I’m talking about a man who regards himself as Presidential timbre deciding to rake in the bucks, rather than educate himself about a rather vital part of the Presidency he aspires to.
If that doesn’t bother you, I can understand why you love George W. Bush, who didn’t have much curiosity about the world either. While you may be up for more of the same, I’m sure not.
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### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2007, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-buggered-out-of-iraq-study-group-to-give-speeches/408634/9 "2007-06-19T20:47:17Z")
> [@Mr. Moto](#):
>
> In any case, given that the conclusions of that group weren’t particularly praiseworthy from my point of view, the fact that someone didn’t work overmuch on the group doesn’t hurt them in my eyes.
“Didn’t work overmuch” is a kind of cute euphemism for “didn’t do jack shit (according to any evidence so far produced, at any rate) and then formally quit when he was called on it”.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2007, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-buggered-out-of-iraq-study-group-to-give-speeches/408634/10 "2007-06-19T21:04:28Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly]
Who said anything about lack of a formal credential?
[/QUOTE]
You did, or at least implied such, in your OP.
Rudy Giuliani is selling national security expertise in his campaign, but you posit that he doesn’t know anything about it. I just said that all you can conclusively show is that he doesn’t have a formal credential in this area - much like many of our recent presidents from both parties.
If you want to show that he is ignorant in this area, you have to do a bit more heavy lifting than just saying that he is. Sorry.
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2007, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-buggered-out-of-iraq-study-group-to-give-speeches/408634/11 "2007-06-19T21:06:14Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde]
Yeah, we all know that him attending that study group or not really decided whether or not you’d vote for him.
[/quote]
No, but it was certainly something I hadn’t previously known about, which would make a candidate I supported considerably more suspect in my eyes. And maybe it should have the same effect on you.
If that had been John Edwards, who is my favorite amongst those running, it would make a lot more difference to me than stories of haircuts, houses, and hedge funds would. I might or might not eventually and reluctantly reach the conclusion that he was the least of evils, but I wouldn’t send him another dollar, or be talking him up anymore.
> [@](#):
>
> And I’m sure said study group would _realllly_ suddenly make him experienced in regard to foreign relations. Most of our candidates have zero real foreign relations experience. The most experienced is probably Hillary since she was first lady and thus did some hand shaking with Bill, but by and large none of them are former diplomats or particularly adept at the kind of foreign relations that the President does.
While it’s true that for many Presidents, foreign policy involves a fair amount of on-the-job training, most try to do what they can to boost their exposure to foreign policy issues. For instance, Senators (Clinton, Obama, Edwards, McCain, F. Thompson, Biden, Dodd) have to vote on such issues, and have plenty of opportunity to become knowledgeable as a result. Bill Clinton took advantage of an active role in the DLC in his pre-Presidential days to learn from foreign policy experts, and of course read voluminously and picked the brains of practically everyone he met. (Clinton was famous for this. Rudy’s famous for surrounding himself with sycophants; that’s ass-kissers to you.)
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### Author:  [@11811](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/11811)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2007, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-buggered-out-of-iraq-study-group-to-give-speeches/408634/12 "2007-06-19T21:09:32Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
\Giuliani had other considerations in mind, …\
[/QUOTE]
I think you mean he “had other priorities.” 🙂
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2007, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-buggered-out-of-iraq-study-group-to-give-speeches/408634/13 "2007-06-19T21:21:06Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
If you want to show that he is ignorant in this area, you have to do a bit more heavy lifting than just saying that he is. Sorry.
[/QUOTE]
It’s hard to prove a negative, but I’ve read what he has to say on such issues on his website, which has been pathetically thin gruel for a Senate candidate, let alone President, and I’ve read some of the debate transcripts, and his remarks there haven’t exactly been beacons of knowledge either.
Main thing is, he had an _opportunity_ - both to learn, and to serve. He decided he had other priorities - but didn’t even bother to let anyone know that, except by accepting the position, then not showing up.
This is the most telling anecdote I’ve seen about any major political figure, including George W. Bush, in quite some time. It shows so much about his character in so many ways: how he feels about educating himself in key ways, how he feels about service, what his priorities are, how he treats his responsibilities towards others that he’s committed himself to.
Would you hire a guy to work for you after hearing this story about him? I sure wouldn’t. He’s not dependable, he’s not trying to improve his skills, he puts short-term ahead of long-term. But I suppose YMMV.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2007, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-buggered-out-of-iraq-study-group-to-give-speeches/408634/14 "2007-06-19T21:21:06Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly]
If that had been John Edwards, who is my favorite amongst those running, it would make a lot more difference to me than stories of haircuts, houses, and hedge funds would.
[/QUOTE]
Besides votes in the Senate (especially since John Edwards’ Senate career wasn’t especially long or noteworthy) what foreign policy expertise does he bring to the table?
You know, since this is so important to you and all.
Or you can just admit that his policy preferences are closer to yours, and end this little charade.
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### Author:  [@usar\_jag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/usar_jag)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2007, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-buggered-out-of-iraq-study-group-to-give-speeches/408634/15 "2007-06-19T21:21:30Z")
[QUOTE=11811]
I think you mean he “had other priorities.” 🙂
[/QUOTE]
The affairs of State must take precedence over the affairs of State. Now, back to walking the parapet…
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### Author:  [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2007, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-buggered-out-of-iraq-study-group-to-give-speeches/408634/16 "2007-06-19T21:22:18Z")
> [@RT](#):
>
> Here’s a candidate whose big selling point is national security, but he doesn’t actually know anything about it. And he passes up an ideal chance to learn, in order to make a bunch of money.
There seems to be a misunderstanding. A “study group” of this kind is not like a study group in college, where people try to prepare for the pop quiz. It’s a think tank, where people knowledgable about Iraq come together to suggest policy. Having unqualified people on the panel only hurts the panel as a whole. It would be like bringing a Waffle House cook into a 5-star kitchen to help prepare dinner for the Queen.
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### Author:  [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2007, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-buggered-out-of-iraq-study-group-to-give-speeches/408634/17 "2007-06-19T21:30:41Z")
Well, in that case most of the Iraq Study Group should have stuck to smothering and covering the hash browns.
Much as I respect Sandra Day O’Connor, Edwin Meese, and Vernon Jordan, these folks have not in their professional lives demonstrated any special expertise on Iraq or the Mideast. Nor have most of the other panelists.
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### Author:  [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2007, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-buggered-out-of-iraq-study-group-to-give-speeches/408634/18 "2007-06-19T21:32:06Z")
> [@Liberal](#):
>
> A “study group” of this kind is not like a study group in college, where people try to prepare for the pop quiz. It’s a think tank, where people knowledgable about Iraq come together to suggest policy. Having unqualified people on the panel only hurts the panel as a whole.
I think you’re possibly confusing membership in the ISG with membership in one of the working groups of experts with whom the ISG members consulted; see description [here](http://www.usip.org/isg/about.html).
In any case, while Giuliani’s lack of expertise might be an argument for not inviting him to participate in the panel in the first place, it doesn’t explain why Giuliani would pass up the opportunity to participate in the panel when he was a member of it.
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### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2007, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-buggered-out-of-iraq-study-group-to-give-speeches/408634/19 "2007-06-19T21:32:56Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal]
There seems to be a misunderstanding. A “study group” of this kind is not like a study group in college, where people try to prepare for the pop quiz. It’s a think tank, where people knowledgable about Iraq come together to suggest policy. Having unqualified people on the panel only hurts the panel as a whole. It would be like bringing a Waffle House cook into a 5-star kitchen to help prepare dinner for the Queen.
[/QUOTE]
OK, let me see if I have this straight:
1. The President gets advice from the ISG.
2. The ISG proper is composed of nonexperts.
3. The staff provides the real expertise.
So
3’) The staff provides its expertise;
2’) the generalists on the ISG use their backgrounds, experience, wisdom, and character to decide what to do with the fruits of the staff’s expertise, in order to make recommendations to
1’) the President of the United States, who will use his background, experience, wisdom, and character to decide what to do with the ISG’s recommendations.
I’m not sure I see the scenario where someone would be an impediment on the ISG, but _wouldn’t_ be a bigger problem as President of the United States.
---
### Author:  [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)
#### Post date: [June 19, 2007, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-buggered-out-of-iraq-study-group-to-give-speeches/408634/20 "2007-06-19T21:35:55Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Moto]
Besides votes in the Senate (especially since John Edwards’ Senate career wasn’t especially long or noteworthy) what foreign policy expertise does he bring to the table?
You know, since this is so important to you and all.
Or you can just admit that his policy preferences are closer to yours, and end this little charade.
[/QUOTE]
Or you could read and respond to the last paragraph in my post that you quoted the beginning of, rather than pretend I didn’t already address this point. And since we’re this far along, my post @13 too, which I think pulls things together a bit more.
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