# Giuliani = fascism **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 8, 2008, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-fascism/432764 "2008-01-08T19:53:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2008, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-fascism/432764/41 "2008-01-09T16:13:41Z")
> [@](#): > > So – we disband government, and leave people absolutely to do whatever they wish. > > Then, of course, we have achieved paradise on Earth, because mankind will live together in peace and harmony. > > Until some tough guy gathers a few like-minded followers around himself, decides he wants to fuck your fifteen-year-old daughter, and pushes little pacifist you out of the way, perhaps pausing slightly to beat the shit out of you, and your pitiful cries about how this is brutal and wrong will fall upon deaf ears. > > Er… better rewind. > > Obviously disbanding government is not (I hope!) your argument. But it illustrates the truth of the statement you now inveigh against: in order to secure our critical areas of freedom, we obviously must cede some of our autonomy to a centralized government. That’s basic social contract stuff. > > The only question is: where do you draw the line? Ron Paul has a very different answer than George Bush, and they both disagree with Barack Obama. But it’s a matter of degree – all agree that some kind of central authority is essential to how we wish to live, and all acknowledge the inescapable fact that we must cede to that authority some personal autonomy. But there’s a fundamental divide over who’s in charge. Some people believe that the purpose of government is to serve the citizens. Others believe that it’s the purpose of the citizens to serve the government. Bush and Guiliani are on one side of that divide and I’m on the other. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2008, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-fascism/432764/42 "2008-01-09T17:08:50Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Ron Paul would not concede any such thing. The purpose of government from his point of view is to guarantee — not usurp — personal autonomy. Free people should be free to pursue their own happiness in their own way. That’s why stealing and murder and such is ethically wrong. It’s because the wrongdoer is forcing his own pursuits on others. Your rights end where my nose begins: that’s the essence of autonomy. [/QUOTE] So Ron Paul is an anarchist? Really Liberal, you’re not this stupid. Your statement about fallacies was wrong, and this is a complete non-sequitur. Why not admit that you made an idiotic statement and be done with it? ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2008, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-fascism/432764/43 "2008-01-09T17:10:05Z")
[QUOTE=D\_Odds] **Zoe** , if Giuliani somehow overcomes the other Republicans, the Democrats will have a field day digging up and discussing his handling of three events during his watch, [Abner Louima](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abner_Louima), [Patrick Dorismond](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patrick_Dorismond), and [Amadou Diallo](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amadou_Diallo). I may jokingly refer to Mayor Giuliani forcing a ban on ferrets through the NYC Dept of Health and his rabid anti-ferret owner tirade (easily found on YouTube, if you want to hear it) as the reason that I am against Giuliani, but I’m against him because he was a tyrant as mayor and the last thing anyone should do is give him more power. [/QUOTE] Holy crap, how could I have forgotten about that “altar boy”, Dorismond? Giuliani also successfully banned iguanas. Apparently the iguana lobby is not nearly as powerful as the ferret lobby. I grew up in the burbs and have lived in the city since 1996. If he were still mayor, I would gladly vote for him for president just to get him the fuck out of New York. ---
**Author:** ![Knowed\_Out](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/knowed_out/32/7380_2.png) [@Knowed\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knowed_Out)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2008, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-fascism/432764/44 "2008-01-09T17:28:18Z")
OK, as the primaries occur, I’m getting more spam emails and seeing more thread titles like these that are ad hominy attacks designed to schock and dismay. So, in a thread titled **Giuliani = fascism** in the completely factual and unbiased SDMB, I expected to find anecdotes illustrating how Giuliani imposed “strength through unity” policy, had an army of thugs controlling NYC, and deprived everyone in the city of their rights. OK, he said something 14 years ago about authority, before he was mayor. Did he write books, organize propoganda machines, and lecture in public about the merits of authority since then? Can’t really tell. Surely his political philosophy couldn’t have changed since then? Nobody _ever_ changes their minds. The museum case, as far as I can tell, was not a victory for him. A judge overruled him on the prospect of withdrawing monetary support from the museum. Simplistic-looking painting with brown spots can still be shown everywhere. Fascism averted, if that’s what it actually was. He otherwise didn’t order the painting to removed, burned, or organize thugs to overrun the museum and bust some heads. In **D\_Odds** ’s post, there’s a link to the Louima incident, but the only mention of Giuliani is when one of the cops told Louima he was going to give him a “Giuliani-style beating,” which Louima later recanted. The article doesn’t say anything about Giuliani’s real involvement, if any. He didn’t prevent the cops from getting thrown in jail or use an army of thugs to overthrow the verdict and set up their own justice system. **D\_Odds** ’s Dorismund link showed how Giuliani authorized the release of the victim’s private juvenile records, and how that fuckup cost him the Senate race. But was that an act of facism, or a misguided attempt to show solidarity with the police, whom he works with daily and whose messes he has to clean up? Otherwise, he had no involvement with how the case turned out, and didn’t abrogate on paying Dorismund’s family $2.25 million. **D\_Odds** ’s link about the Diallo case doesn’t mention Giuliani, not even in a beat-down term. I assume Giuliani said some things about it people didn’t like, which made them angry. He otherwise didn’t influence the case, since it changed venue to Albany. Diallo’s family also got $3 million out of the deal, which any good fascist would have refused to pay. Maybe he wouldn’t make a good president, but _where’s the fascism_? ---
**Author:** ![D\_Odds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/d_odds/32/2882_2.png) [@D\_Odds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D_Odds)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2008, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-fascism/432764/45 "2008-01-09T17:59:57Z")
**Knowed Out** , in each of those three cases, Mayor Giuliani _immediately_ sided with the NYPD (as opposed to Mayor Bloomberg’s “wait and see” with the more recent Sean Bell shooting), and as evidence in each of those cases piled up against the NYPD, he kept reiterating his support of the officers. The mayor’s office did the best to hatchet job each of the three victims. I can understand wanting to show support and solidarity with the NYPD, and it is true that they are often scapegoated. However, at some point, you have to look at the individuals you are supporting, and realize that an individual or individuals in an otherwise good organization are rotten (or in the case of Louima, incompetent for their role) and fix the problem, not continue supporting them and attacking the victim. Many NYers, myself included, thought that Mayor Giuliani was initially a change for the better from Mayor Dinkins. Dinkins was the Carter of NY mayors - ineffectual. Giuliani came in and started getting results, and things looked up. But as time wore on, his character, which is basically “my way or my way”, became apparent. Ask former NYPD head William Bratton, who should get at least as much credit as Mayor Giuliani (if not more) for cleaning up NY. Giuliani does not simply ignore any alternate viewpoint to his own, he openly mocks it and berates it. He is less open to new ideas, IMO, than Bush/Cheney. Great as long as you are with him step-for-step; bad if you ever disagree. And for the record, he did have an army, which many considered and still consider thugs, that he empowered during his term. Fortunately, they mostly gave out tickets, but there was an underlying attitude among them that they were less likely to get in trouble during the Giuliani terms than during the Dinkins or Bloomberg periods.\* No matter how much a facist he wanted to be (which I’m sure you recognize as a rhetorical device), the Constitution and Bill of Rights did their job and kept his bad tendencies well in check. Having seen those bad tendencies on a smaller scale, I’d rather not give him more power and potentially more ability to skirt those documents when they get in his way. \*Anecdotal: I only know a handful of officers, but all shared the attitude. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2008, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-fascism/432764/46 "2008-01-09T18:03:11Z")
[QUOTE=Knowed Out] So, in a thread titled **Giuliani = fascism** in the completely factual and unbiased SDMB, I expected to find anecdotes illustrating how Giuliani imposed “strength through unity” policy, had an army of thugs controlling NYC, and deprived everyone in the city of their rights. [/quote] There’s hyperbole in the Pit? Holy fuck, it’s the end of the world! ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2008, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-fascism/432764/47 "2008-01-09T18:08:08Z")
I am absolutely certain this has been linked here before, but [this article](http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2006/12/05/giuliani/index.html) is well worth reading. And it doesn’t even mention cabaret licenses. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2008, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-fascism/432764/48 "2008-01-09T18:11:06Z")
[QUOTE=Weirddave] So Ron Paul is an anarchist? Really Liberal, you’re not this stupid. Your statement about fallacies was wrong, and this is a complete non-sequitur. Why not admit that you made an idiotic statement and be done with it? [/QUOTE] I’ll allow **Liberal** to defend his own idiocy or lack thereof, but I had the same reaction upon reading **Bricker** ’s post. It seemed to suggest that if the OP finds the statement “freedom is about submission to authority” a mite disturbing and creepy-Orwellian coming from a Presidential candidate, he’s in favor of abandoning all forms of government in favor of a daughter-rapin’ free-for-all. This requires an Evel Knievel jump over what could only in the most charitable sense be called an “excluded middle.” (I also found the OP’s use of “fascism” to be needlessly hyperbolic, but the cure for stupidity isn’t more stupidity.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2008, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-fascism/432764/49 "2008-01-09T18:39:08Z")
[QUOTE=Carson O’Genic] The broad brush of 9/11 has turned jackboots into gilded slippers. [/QUOTE] Did you miss the part where it was explained that the quote in the OP was from a 1994 speech? Nothing to do with 9/11/01. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2008, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-fascism/432764/50 "2008-01-09T18:52:06Z")
From [Andrew Sullivan](http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2007/11/the-next-decide.html): > [@](#): > > Notice, moreover, that Giuliani seems to harbor no notion that any terror suspect in the US is innocent until proven guilty, and assumes a complete, reflexive conflation between “criminals” and those charged with a crime, as if no government official could ever confuse the two, or ever make a mistake and decide to cover it up. Notice also his assertion that some Democrats want no wiretapping, period. What they and rule-of-law Republicans favor is wiretapping with warrants, and minimal oversight, to prevent abuse. Again: what’s staggering to me is that Giuliani never seems to contemplate that such abuse is even possible. Nothing could be more alien to a truly conservative mindset. > > It seems to me that a vote for Giuliani is a vote for a police state that uses torture. I put it that bluntly because I don’t see how granting one man the right to seize and torture anyone anywhere is anything else. Let’s be honest about that reality too, shall we? And it’s in that context that you have to understand Giuliani’s fondness for a certain kind of judge. Giuliani will appoint judges who believe that the executive branch should be granted carte blanche in wartime - and wartime is now defined as permanent and includes as potential “enemy combatants” anyone in the US or anywhere else liable to seizure and “aggressive questioning” by cops or soldiers. Just think about the consequences of that for a while, even in the hands of a man or woman with a record of restraint and level-headedness and magnanimity. Now imagine those powers handed to someone with a long history of vindictiveness, over-reach, and hot-headedness. > > American civil liberty has been gutted by the current Bush-Cheney administration. Some loss was inevitable and justifiable - but the extent of the administration’s over-reach continues to amaze. When they even offend a man like Jack Goldsmith whose view of executive power would have been deemed on the far-right fringe not so long ago, you know how far we’ve gone and how fast. Electing Giuliani after Cheney would be a retroactive endorsement of all of it - and a further entrenchment of the security state. Majorities may well vote for this, ginned up by Fox News, “24”, and, in the worst scenario, another terror attack. But a protectorate endorsed by electoral majorities is still a protectorate. And these things matter - more than any other issue, because they are definitional of the West, and the most basic freedoms that our predecessors died for. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2008, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-fascism/432764/51 "2008-01-09T18:53:49Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Did you miss the part where it was explained that the quote in the OP was from a 1994 speech? Nothing to do with 9/11/01. [/QUOTE] Ah, but 9/11 changed everything. Even retroactively. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2008, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-fascism/432764/52 "2008-01-09T19:29:43Z")
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] I’ll allow **Liberal** to defend his own idiocy or lack thereof, but I had the same reaction upon reading **Bricker** ’s post. It seemed to suggest that if the OP finds the statement “freedom is about submission to authority” a mite disturbing and creepy-Orwellian coming from a Presidential candidate, he’s in favor of abandoning all forms of government in favor of a daughter-rapin’ free-for-all. This requires an Evel Knievel jump over what could only in the most charitable sense be called an “excluded middle.” (I also found the OP’s use of “fascism” to be needlessly hyperbolic, but the cure for stupidity isn’t more stupidity.) [/QUOTE] You must not have read the same post I did then, or else you stopped after the first few lines and completely missed their sarcasm. Did you read this paragraph (emphasis mine)? > [@Bricker](#): > > **Obviously disbanding government is not (I hope!) your argument**. But it illustrates the truth of the statement you now inveigh against: in order to secure our critical areas of freedom, we obviously must cede **some** of our autonomy to a centralized government. That’s basic social contract stuff. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2008, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-fascism/432764/53 "2008-01-09T20:17:46Z")
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] Ah, but 9/11 changed everything. Even retroactively. [/QUOTE] :smack: Damn, I keep forgetting that! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2008, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-fascism/432764/54 "2008-01-09T20:44:31Z")
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] I’ll allow **Liberal** to defend his own idiocy or lack thereof, but I had the same reaction upon reading **Bricker** ’s post. It seemed to suggest that if the OP finds the statement “freedom is about submission to authority” a mite disturbing and creepy-Orwellian coming from a Presidential candidate, he’s in favor of abandoning all forms of government in favor of a daughter-rapin’ free-for-all. This requires an Evel Knievel jump over what could only in the most charitable sense be called an “excluded middle.” [/QUOTE] Please re-read the fifth and sixth paragraphs of my post. (Or read them for the first time, on the chance that you simply missed them on the first run-through). ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2008, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-fascism/432764/55 "2008-01-09T23:26:52Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Please re-read the fifth and sixth paragraphs of my post. (Or read them for the first time, on the chance that you simply missed them on the first run-through). [/QUOTE] Okay, I apparently may have missed the satirical intent of your strawman, for which I apologize. In my eyes, Giuliani’s statement is disturbing not because it was necessarily _untrue_, but because it’s telling–indicating the focus of his mindset. There are many other statements which, while true, I don’t particularly want to hear from an elected public official, such as “you’re ALL GOING TO DIE!” and “every day I make a stinky poopy.” ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2008, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-fascism/432764/56 "2008-01-09T23:30:25Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Please re-read the fifth and sixth paragraphs of my post. (Or read them for the first time, on the chance that you simply missed them on the first run-through). [/QUOTE] The fifth and sixth paragraphs of your post point out that different people have different opinions about the proper balance between individual liberty and government authority. Guiliani’s statement is a rejection of the concept that such a balance is even relevant, and an assertion that only the latter is needed. The two have nothing to do with each other. ---
**Author:** ![OtakuLoki](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ac8455/32.png) [@OtakuLoki](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OtakuLoki)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2008, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-fascism/432764/57 "2008-01-10T01:09:47Z")
[QUOTE=RTA] Chris Ofili is a black, English-born Nigerian artist who draws upon his cultural traditions. The “white Englishman” pictured in the article you linked is identified twice as that article’s author. [/QUOTE] I’m sorry for my mistake. I have to stop simply skimming sites that I pull up to “confirm” what I thought I already knew. ---
**Author:** ![Carson\_O\_Genic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/cdc98d/32.png) [@Carson\_O\_Genic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carson_O_Genic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2008, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-fascism/432764/58 "2008-01-10T02:35:23Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] Did you miss the part where it was explained that the quote in the OP was from a 1994 speech? Nothing to do with 9/11/01. [/QUOTE] No,didn’t miss it.My comment applies to the perception many non-NYer’s have of Rudy following the towers attack-someone in charge,confident;a leader.I doubt he would have presidential candidate standing without the event. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2008, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-fascism/432764/59 "2008-01-10T02:45:01Z")
Hadn’t been for 9/11, the rest of us would have thought his first name was Don, and that he was allied with Barzini all along. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2008, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-fascism/432764/60 "2008-01-10T05:25:58Z")
[QUOTE=Liberal] Ron Paul would not concede any such thing. The purpose of government from his point of view is to guarantee — not usurp — personal autonomy. Free people should be free to pursue their own happiness in their own way… [/QUOTE] \ **Lib** , I take it you’re a Ron Paul supporter – if it is to be a Repub, I would have taken him as well – so you must know the man a bit. In that sense, what do you make of this article? [**Angry White Man**](http://www.tnr.com/politics/story.html?id=e2f15397-a3c7-4720-ac15-4532a7da84ca) Any truth to it or simply all smear? \ [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giuliani-fascism/432764.md?page=2)