# Give me your 9/11 conspiracy theories! And/or their debunking **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041 "2009-05-20T03:24:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 28
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/541 "2009-06-13T00:04:55Z")
[QUOTE=Try2B Comprehensive] Xtisme: Show me some proof that the Taliban was aiding and abetting AQ pre-911, instead of AQ simply hiding in the mountains. Show me that the Taliban could turn over OBL if they wanted to. [/QUOTE] To what end, exactly? What would convince you? This is, to me, like you requesting that water is wet, or a cite that the sky is blue. It’s not even seriously in question whether or not the Taliban aided AQ. Here is an excerpt from [Wiki](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda) (that I’ve previously linked to in this thread): > [@](#): > > Refuge in Afghanistan > Main article: Taliban > > After the Soviet withdrawal, Afghanistan was effectively ungoverned for seven years and plagued by constant infighting between former allies and various mujahedeen groups. > > Throughout the 1990s, a new force began to emerge. The origins of the Taliban (literally “students”) lay in the children of Afghanistan, many of them orphaned by the war, and many of whom had been educated in the rapidly expanding network of Islamic schools (madrassas) either in Kandahar or in the refugee camps on the Afghan-Pakistani border. > > According to Ahmed Rashid, five leaders of the Taliban were graduates of a single madrassa, Darul Uloom Haqqania (also known as “the University of Jihad",)[60] in the small town of Akora Khattak near Peshawar, situated in Pakistan but largely attended by Afghan refugees.[61][unreliable source?][page needed] This institution reflected Salafi beliefs in its teachings, and much of its funding came from private donations from wealthy Arabs, for whom bin Laden provided conduit. A further four leading figures (including the perceived Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar Mujahed) attended a similarly funded and influenced madrassa in Kandahar, Afghanistan. > > Many of the mujahedeen who later joined the Taliban fought alongside Afghan warlord Mohammad Nabi Mohammadi’s Harkat i Inqilabi group at the time of the Russian invasion. This group also enjoyed the loyalty of most Afghan Arab fighters. > > The continuing internecine strife between various factions, and accompanying lawlessness following the Soviet withdrawal, enabled the growing and well-disciplined Taliban to expand their control over territory in Afghanistan, and they came to establish an enclave which it called the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. In 1994, they captured the regional center of Kandahar, and after making rapid territorial gains thereafter, conquered the capital city Kabul in September 1996. > > After Sudan made it clear that bin Laden and his group were no longer welcome that year, Taliban-controlled Afghanistan — with previously established connections between the groups, a similar outlook on world affairs and largely isolated from American political influence and military power — provided a perfect location for al-Qaeda to establish its headquarters. Al-Qaeda enjoyed the Taliban’s protection and a measure of legitimacy as part of their Ministry of Defense, although only Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates recognized the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan. > > Al-Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan and the Pakistani border regions are alleged to have trained militant Muslims from around the world.[62][63] Despite the perception of some people, al-Qaeda members are ethnically diverse and connected by their radical version of Islam. > > An ever-expanding network of supporters thus enjoyed a safe haven in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan until the Taliban were defeated by a combination of local forces and CIA Special Activities Division Paramilitary Officers, US Army Special Forces and air power in 2001 (see section September 11, attacks and the United States response). Osama bin Laden and other al-Qaeda leaders are still believed to be located in areas where the population is sympathetic to the Taliban in Afghanistan or the border Tribal Areas of Pakistan. As for your request for proof ‘that the Taliban could turn over OBL if they wanted to’, again I ask, what would you accept? I asked this earlier if you would accept as proof if I could show you that another weak country did in fact threaten AQ with turning over ObL and key AQ members if they didn’t leave…and AQ left. You did not accept this as proof. So…what WOULD you accept exactly? This is simply an academic question, of course, because as I already pointed out, the Taliban never had any intention of turning in AQ…they were allies and had very similar philosophies. So…there isn’t any ‘proof’, because in our universe the Taliban never seemingly considered this as an option. Do you understand how silly your requests are on this subject? Do you understand that it shows, quite clearly, that you really don’t understand this subject very well, and that by repeatedly asking for this kind of thing it also shows you are unwilling to even entertain the data presented to you? Assuming you do understand that, you should probably understand this as well…all of this stuff is old news, and has been debated ad nauseum on this board. So…most of the posters in this thread, with the exception of a few loony CTers, already know all of this stuff. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/542 "2009-06-13T05:15:38Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > If you want to be nitpicky, Ockham is correct, but Occam is the more common spelling. And it’s jibe. For something to jive with something else would be to dance with it. Thanks for the correction. I’ve been mistaking that thing about jive for years 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/543 "2009-06-13T11:10:17Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > So…most of the posters in this thread, with the exception of a few loony CTers, already know all of this stuff. > -XT Are you suggesting that all these ‘facts’ you are coming out with to debunk those deluded twoofers, are common knowledge, or do you need to be pretty savvy to know all this stuff? If it’s the latter, would those of you on the side of ‘the real world’ and the official theory, like to state your qualifications, or are you all just slightly more reliably informed armchair-theorists than myself? Again, if it’s the latter, reliably informed by who? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/544 "2009-06-13T11:56:00Z")
> [@spifflog](#): > > . . . you are just trolling on this issue. Do not make accusations of trolling in Great Debates. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/545 "2009-06-13T12:17:03Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Are you suggesting that all these ‘facts’ you are coming out with to debunk those deluded twoofers, are common knowledge, or do you need to be pretty savvy to know all this stuff? > > If it’s the latter, would those of you on the side of ‘the real world’ and the official theory, like to state your qualifications, or are you all just slightly more reliably informed armchair-theorists than myself? Again, if it’s the latter, reliably informed by who? Hey ivan, it looks like you forgot to address what’s being asked of you again my good friend. Post #517, please. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/546 "2009-06-13T12:46:33Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Hey ivan, it looks like you forgot to address what’s being asked of you again my good friend. Post #517, please. Thanks. I’ve not forgotten. Until you and **Telemark** give me your personal credentials to counter any suppositions I may make, you’ll have to wait. I’ll tell you mine upfront. I’m very well-read, not easily blagged at all, have bags of common sense, have a healthy distrust of ‘authority figures’ and am extremely open to convincing persuasion, as opposed to being bludgeoned by ‘facts’. Oh, I also have a very devious mind, but reckon there are those much more devious than myself, who also have the resources and the power to do something more than think about things. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/547 "2009-06-13T12:51:47Z")
3 skyscrapers, 2 hit by a plane apiece, all collapse in one day due to fire, first time in history, for total collapse due to fire for skyscrapers in a single day. Either the buildings weren’t built correctly or something else is going on. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/548 "2009-06-13T12:55:46Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > 3 skyscrapers, 2 hit by a plane apiece, all collapse in one day due to fire, first time in history, for total collapse due to fire for skyscrapers in a single day. Either the buildings weren’t built correctly or something else is going on. Third plane, manages to sneak by all the Pentagon’s security cameras, when one, which **must** have faced out onto the heliport in front of the crash site, **must** have picked something clearer up than what has been shown. Fourth plane, possibly heading for the White House, fortunately gets brought down by brave passengers. Phew! Lucky government! ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/549 "2009-06-13T14:05:33Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Third plane, manages to sneak by all the Pentagon’s security cameras, when one, which **must** have faced out onto the heliport in front of the crash site, **must** have picked something clearer up than what has been shown. So despite hundreds of witnesses, bodies of passengers and plane parts you are complaining that there isn’t a market quality video of the impact for you to drool over? > [@](#): > > Fourth plane, possibly heading for the White House, fortunately gets brought down by brave passengers. Phew! Lucky government! Lucky? Way to crap on people’s heroism from your warm, safe chair. The people on that flight learned what happened to the other planes and decided not to be used that way. They made the ultimate sacrifice,only to have internet wastrels complain about their efforts. Sickening. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 2:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/550 "2009-06-13T14:07:16Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > 3 skyscrapers, 2 hit by a plane apiece, all collapse in one day due to fire, first time in history, for total collapse due to fire for skyscrapers in a single day. Either the buildings weren’t built correctly or something else is going on. Or buildings just aren’t mean to have multi-ton, 40,000L molotov cocktails hit them at several hundred miles and hour and survive for very long. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/551 "2009-06-13T14:50:49Z")
[QUOTE=ivan astikov] Are you suggesting that all these ‘facts’ you are coming out with to debunk those deluded twoofers, are common knowledge, or do you need to be pretty savvy to know all this stuff? [/QUOTE] Are you saying it takes some kind of special knowledge to have read that the Taliban supported, aided and abetted AQ prior to 9/11?? Personally, I think it takes the ‘special knowledge’ consisting of the ability to read for the past decades, and the concentration to be able to follow along with the news. So, no…you don’t need to be pretty savvy…you need to be able to read and follow along. Sadly, based on this post, this ‘special knowledge’ is beyond you. But, hope springs eternal! You don’t need a sooper sekret decoder ring or hand shake…you just need a brain and the will to use it. I’m confident that you too can use Google to look up the relationship between the Taliban and AQ! I know you can do it, 'mano! > [@](#): > > Again, if it’s the latter, reliably informed by who? Well, there are myriad news sources who have reported on the relationship between the Taliban and AQ. Independent reporters. Then there is what you probably consider a ‘bad source’, in that multiple governments have also reported and brought out evidence about the relationship. Then there is the Taliban and AQ themselves, who have never denied the relationship and have commented about it. Then there is the fact that the Taliban and AQ have been fighting together as allies since the invasion. There is a cornucopia of data, in fact. Take your pick. No special knowledge needed. Simply the ability to read and follow along. Give it a shot, ehe? -XT ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/552 "2009-06-13T15:24:59Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Or buildings just aren’t mean to have multi-ton, 40,000L molotov cocktails hit them at several hundred miles and hour and survive for very long. Building 7 wasn’t hit by a 40,000L molotov cocktail moreover a molotov cocktail’s destructive power lies in it’s ability to create fire not crash into stuff. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/553 "2009-06-13T15:28:26Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Building 7 wasn’t hit by a 40,000L molotov cocktail moreover a molotov cocktail’s destructive power lies in it’s ability to create fire not crash into stuff. It was already explained how Building 7’s peculiar architecture played a part in the fall of it, and photograph and video evidence showed that the collapse of the WTC tower caused more damage than it was assumed before. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/554 "2009-06-13T15:39:05Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Are you saying it takes some kind of special knowledge to have read that the Taliban supported, aided and abetted AQ prior to 9/11?? Personally, I think it takes the ‘special knowledge’ consisting of the ability to read for the past decades, and the concentration to be able to follow along with the news. Where’s your evidence that shows the existance of Al Qaeda prior to 2001? Where’s your evidence that shows that Osama Bin Laden is a member or even a leader of such organization? Don’t just say everyone knows that show that it’s not merely hearsay. Here’s a video on the origin and “myth” of Al Qaeda. ![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/qNvqm_qgM5U/maxresdefault.jpg)https://www.youtube.com/embed/qNvqm_qgM5U?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/555 "2009-06-13T15:43:43Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Third plane, manages to sneak by all the Pentagon’s security cameras, when one, which **must** have faced out onto the heliport in front of the crash site, **must** have picked something clearer up than what has been shown. Ok, based on this post (I was getting evidence don’t you know?) and your refusal to answer my last question to you it is clear that you are a CT. In the previous thread (in which you participated) many explained with many details and cites why it was ridiculous to think that there was something else besides a passenger plane that crashed at the pentagon. And it was explained before that there is no reason to think anything else was found. When the videos mentioned by the conspiracy theorists were released they showed only the effects of the crash and blast. It is then that the witness testimony, but even more importantly, the forensic evidence that has to be taken into account. And they demonstrated that a passenger Boeing 757 Really Did Impact the Pentagon on 9/11 and nothing else. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/556 "2009-06-13T15:47:50Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Ok, based on this post (I was getting evidence don’t you know?) and your refusal to answer my last question to you it is clear that you are a CT. To me this is tantamount to name calling, saying someone is a CT’er or other thing is a personal attack…Why is this allowed? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/557 "2009-06-13T16:04:04Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Where’s your evidence that shows the existance of Al Qaeda prior to 2001? > **[Bill Moyers Journal . Brief History of al Qaeda | PBS](http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07272007/alqaeda.html)** > [@](#): > > 1989-1996: Early al Qaeda attacks from Sudan > > When the Soviets pulled out of Afghanistan in early 1989, bin Laden and Azzam decided that their new organization should not dissolve. They established what they called a base (al Qaeda) as a potential general headquarters for future jihad. However, bin Laden, now the clear emir of al Qaeda, and Azzam differed on where the organization’s future objectives should lie. Azzam favored continued fighting in Afghanistan until there was a true Islamist government, while bin Laden wanted to prepare al Qaeda to fight anywhere in the world. When Azzam was killed in 1989, bin Laden assumed full charge of al Qaeda. > > After leaving Afghanistan and being exiled by Saudi Arabia, bin Laden moved to Sudan, and with him went the base of operations for al Qaeda. From the sanctuary of Sudan, bin Laden began synching up with groups from all over the Middle East and northern Africa, and began laying the groundwork for his jihad against the West. > > Beginning with a fatwa called against the United States’ deployment to Somalia, bin Laden would continually plan and aid attacks against the United States. Al Qaeda trainers allegedly aided in downing two Black Hawk helicopters in 1993. Bin Laden and al Qaeda also took credit for the bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993. In 1995, al Qaeda associates were responsible for a car bomb that exploded outside a Saudi-U.S. joint facility in Saudi Arabia that was used to train the Saudi National Guard. > > 1996-2000: The rise of the Taliban resurrects al Qaeda > > Due to mounting international pressure, Sudan forced bin Laden to return to Afghanistan, where he struggled to rebuild his terrorist network. It was not until the rise of the Taliban that bin Laden had al Qaeda working again, and had enough confidence to issue his 1998 fatwa against the United States and its citizens. By this time, al Qaeda had merged with the Egyptian Islamist Jihad, headed by Ayman al-Zawahri, who would become number two in command to bin Laden. Al Qaeda was now the general headquarters for international terrorism. > > While previous acts by al Qaeda had involved training, funding and aiding other groups, the new refuge in Afghanistan allowed for bin Laden to take his organization to the next level. In 1998, the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania were attacked by terrorists, yet this time, it was planned, directed and executed solely by al Qaeda and bin Laden. Al Qaeda would also be responsible for the 2000 strike against the U.S.S. Cole in Yemen, which left 17 American sailors dead. > [@EasyPhil](#): > > Where’s your evidence that shows that Osama Bin Laden is a member or even a leader of such organization? > [@](#): > > The true roots of Osama bin Laden’s al Qaeda network stem from the decade-long conflict that plagued Afghanistan from 1979-1989. After Afghanistan was invaded by the Soviet Union, the Afghan Islamist extremists found a rallying call for their cause, as young Muslims from around the world came to Afghanistan to volunteer in what was being called a “holy war,” or jihad, against the invading Soviets. One of these young Muslims was a 23 year old from Saudi Arabia named “Usama” bin Ladin. > > Son of a wealthy construction magnate, bin Ladin had taken to the religious sermons of Abdullah Azzam, a Palestinian and disciple of Sayyid Qutb. While he participated in few actual battles in Afghanistan, bin Laden became known for his generous funding of the jihad against the Soviets. > > However, bin Laden’s ambitions extended beyond the boarders of Afghanistan, and he began to develop a complex international organization. He set up a financial support network known as the “Golden Chain,” comprised mainly of financiers from Saudi Arabia and Persian Gulf states. Using this immense new fund, bin Laden and Azzam created a “Bureau of Services,” which helped channel recruits for the jihad into Afghanistan. With Saudi Arabia and the United States pouring in billions of dollars worth of secret assistance to rebels in Afghanistan, the jihad against the Soviets was constantly gaining momentum. > > 1989-1996: Early al Qaeda attacks from Sudan > > When the Soviets pulled out of Afghanistan in early 1989, bin Laden and Azzam decided that their new organization should not dissolve. > [@EasyPhil](#): > > Don’t just say everyone knows that show that it’s not merely hearsay. > > Here’s a video on the origin and “myth” of Al Qaeda. > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNvqm\_qgM5U](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qNvqm_qgM5U) Jason Burke does not say that there is not an Al-Qaeda but shows that the way that “organization” is portrayed in the West is wrong. **I do agree with him** , but clearly the BBC show is an attempt to demonstrate how exaggerated their threat was painted by the USA after 9/11, The show does not demonstrate that Al-qaeda was a myth, but what their capabilities are. It was clear to me that the Keystone cops of terrorism got lucky on 9/11, but that does not make it an organization that we should ignore, a crime was committed in any case. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/558 "2009-06-13T16:13:14Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > To me this is tantamount to name calling, saying someone is a CT’er or other thing is a personal attack…Why is this allowed? Because he did not answer the question and demonstrated that he could change his opinions regarding Griffin. I demonstrated that Griffin say so’s were a lie regarding the transponder an radar operators. If no acknowledgment of that lie (from Griffin) comes from the doubter of the official history then this is evidence that we are dealing with a conspiracy theorist that is a willful ignorant. If you think a little bit you will realize that my last paragraph here shows that one can be a conspiracy theorist but show a willingness to change. If you think that that is an insult I would say that you are just trying to play to the refs. If you want to demonstrate that you are the later CT then show us, but it is clear now that \*\*ivan \*\*is the former. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/559 "2009-06-13T16:49:16Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I’ve not forgotten. Until you and **Telemark** give me your personal credentials to counter any suppositions I may make, you’ll have to wait. > > I’ll tell you mine upfront. > > I’m very well-read, not easily blagged at all, have bags of common sense, have a healthy distrust of ‘authority figures’ and am extremely open to convincing persuasion, as opposed to being bludgeoned by ‘facts’. Oh, I also have a very devious mind, but reckon there are those much more devious than myself, who also have the resources and the power to do something more than think about things. _What?_ You’re not just moving goal posts now, you’re erecting new ones. And you didn’t list a single credential. Talking oneself up is not a “credential”. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/560 "2009-06-13T16:55:04Z")
EasyPhil - ivan gave a response (albeit a completely absurd and incoherent one) to why he’s not answering questions. Why aren’t you? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041.md?page=27) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041.md?page=29)