# Give me your 9/11 conspiracy theories! And/or their debunking **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041 "2009-05-20T03:24:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/41 "2009-05-21T21:05:06Z")
> [@NYC\_Chic](#): > > The put options and shares sold the days before. This is trival to debunk. There is zero chance of people getting away with something like this. Ask any SEC agent, detecting if someone is insider trading is trivally easy, the hard part is proving they had insider knowledge. It was easy to track down who made those trades and why (the 9/11 commission report did just [that](http://www.911myths.com/html/put_options.html)): > [@](#): > > "A single U.S.-based institutional investor with no conceivable ties to al Qaeda purchased 95 percent of the UAL puts on September 6 as part of a trading strategy that also included buying 115,000 shares of American on September 10… > > Similarly, much of the seemingly suspicious trading in American on September 10th was traced to a specific U.S.-based options trading newsletter, faxed to its subscribers on Sunday, September 9, which recommended these trades". ---
**Author:** ![RedSwinglineOne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a9adbd/32.png) [@RedSwinglineOne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedSwinglineOne)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/42 "2009-05-21T21:09:24Z")
[Popular Mechanics](http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/military_law/1227842.html) did a very nice point by point debunking of the conspiracy theorists claims. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/43 "2009-05-21T21:10:35Z")
[QUOTE=NYC\_Chic] My theory about 9/11 is that the buildings were rigged with explosives and bought down with a control demolition. [/QUOTE] Ever seen a building rigged for demolition? They cut away supports and concrete columns and much of the buildings infrastructure and put in literally miles and miles of cable. All of this takes weeks or months to accomplish and lots of people. Don’t you think someone would have noticed some of that stuff? The controlled demolitions thingy has been debunked numerous times. It doesn’t even make logical sense. Why would you need explosives if you were already going to fly two fully loaded (with fuel) air planes into them? How would you be able to control the explosions with air planes and jet fuel crashing into the building and burning out of control? Why/how would you delay the explosions for minutes or hours after the crash? How would you get hundreds of secret workers into the buildings to put in all the explosives that would be needed WHERE they’d be needed to bring those buildings down?? How would you cover this up so that no one would see all the work that would be needed in order to do such a silly thing? Like any good CT this one will never die as long as there are true believers, regardless of the mountains of evidence against it (and the mole hill of ‘evidence’ presented in it’s favor). -XT ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/44 "2009-05-21T21:14:37Z")
> [@NYC\_Chic](#): > > The day of, on 9/11, I had to go get my sons from school and I saw people walking, covered in white grainy powder. How did a building falling coat the whole area with a thick coating of grainy powder? When the building fell on Sixth Ave, there was nothing like that. > [@CurtC](#): > > Concrete makes a lot of dust when it fractures, and there was a huge amount of gypsum wallboard in the towers. Those were the major sources of dust, and there was a lot of material to make it. Besides the fact that debris flying all over the place is an argument _against_ “controlled” demolition, I don’t know what building on Sixth Ave she’s talking about, but I’m guessing it wasn’t 220 storeys tall - the combined height of the twin towers. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/45 "2009-05-21T21:26:20Z")
> [@NYC\_Chic](#): > > The Patriot Act was ready to go like later that day giving the government the power to do all kinds of invasive and un-American stuff that we would never had stood for if it wasn’t for the shock of 9/11. It was introduced on October 23 and signed on October 26. It did, indeed, contain a lot of bad shit, because it was written _in response_ to 9/11, with a lot of fear and overblown rhetoric flying around, and anybody against it was flamed as being pro-terror and anti-American. > [@NYC\_Chic](#): > > The Patriot Act makes the government party to every financial transaction and communication which is beyond socialism to me. Beyond socialism? Do you even know what socialism is? ---
**Author:** ![griffin1977](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/977dab/32.png) [@griffin1977](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/griffin1977)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/46 "2009-05-21T21:27:07Z")
> [@NYC\_Chic](#): > > The put options and shares sold the days before. Additionally the profit on those options after 9/11 was[Four Million Dollars](http://www.nationalreview.com/rose/rose200407260700.asp). Even if there was sinister pre-knowledge behind it who would be more likely to kill thousands of people (not to mention risk the discovery of their entire nefarious scheme) to earn the cost of [3 bedroom townhome in New York](http://www.corcoran.com/property/listing.aspx?Region=NYC&listingid=1539637). A sinister-all-powerful cabal with access to more money than god, or a cash strapped terrorist group (that required the 9/11 hijackers to [send BACK](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammed_Atta#August_2001_final_plans_in_U.S.) their unspent cash before carrying out their sucide attacks) ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/47 "2009-05-21T21:38:25Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Hell, yes. > Should’ve pacified Afghanistan before moving on to Iraq. That part of the aftermath was a big clusterfuck. Fully agreed. That’s where I got confused too. Pilots come from Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan is where we find MOST of al-Queda… let’s invade Iraq! Huh? Then comes the “Weapons Of Mass Destruction” speech. We find none, Bush administration says, “they moved 'em!” So, the whole thing is full of shit. I really can’t stand people who think that either Bush Administration planned it or looked the other way when they had some type of warning (pilots in training not finishing flight courses, etc.). I usually respond with “Are you telling me only a few people knew about this? You’re assuming that thousands of govt. employees kept quiet.” The only thing that could sway me to a “already knew about it and let it happen” scenario is if thousands of people left New York City a week before. I certainly don’t remember any story like that. I DO, however, believe that whether or not the Bushies knew anything, they certainly did use this as an excuse to invade Iraq. For oil? Maybe. Who the hell knows… ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/48 "2009-05-21T21:41:50Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > After all this time, aren’t you still a bit suspicious about the events of 9/11 and it’s aftermath? I am, but I’m getting a lot of flak for it. I’m new to the board and haven’t seen the other threads on this topic that must be out there somewhere. What I’d like to do is build a thread that explains/links to as many 9/11 conspiracy theories as possible. The hope is that perhaps they can be categorized, and if they’re all wrong, _categorically_ debunked! > > Here’s what I’m hoping for: > > - What exactly is the ‘official story’ anyway? To me it seems to have changed over the years. > -What are the most plausible 9/11 conspiracy theories you’ve heard of? Please, post a link! Or debunk a theory that’s already out there. Or do both! Understand, I’m not in search of The Unified Conspiracy Theory (unless you have photos of the secret Illuminati headquarters or something). I don’t want to stray far from 9/11 and the war on terror, etc. > -Just how firmly do you believe the official story of 9/11, including the subsequent wars, changes to the constitution, oil price spikes, and so on? Firm believer? Anything in this whole mess you doubt at all? > -I’m trying to keep a lid on my own views here. I want to know what smart people on SDMB can provide. > > Let me add: I don’t hate America. I doubt I’m crazy either, I just want to collect everything about this topic under one thread, once and for all. Maybe I’ll be less paranoid after it is all done, you never know. What?! You’re crazy. 9/11 [never happened](http://xkcd.com/496/)! Wake up, sheeple! ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/49 "2009-05-21T21:46:03Z")
[QUOTE=Locrian] I DO, however, believe that whether or not the Bushies knew anything, they certainly did use this as an excuse to invade Iraq. For oil? Maybe. Who the hell knows… [/QUOTE] I’d say that they certainly used it to invade Iraq…and that oil was a major factor. Oh, not to ‘steal’ it, a la Der Trihs…but because of it’s strategic importance to the US and the fact that we didn’t want a loose cannon like Saddam to control so much of it. We also wanted to demonstrate US military and political might in the region (and didn’t THAT work out well??), as well as basing and staging areas in order to be able to respond to any future dust ups that might occur. At a guess we also wanted to threaten Iran, Syria, Libya, etc etc…and demonstrate to them what could happen to them if they fucked up in a similar way to Iraq and Saddam. Bush et al essentially used the attack on the US as one big excuse to knock off Saddam and Iraq…and they fucked us all by doing so. -XT ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/50 "2009-05-21T21:52:12Z")
Of the 9/11 conspiracy theories, the only one that makes even a remote bit of sense to me is that terrorists hijacked four jetliners and crashed them into the Twin Towers, the Pentagon, and a field in Pennsylvania. Seriously, of all the conspiracy theories, 9/11 is to my mind the absolute least plausible. JFK? Supremely, profoundly unlikely, but I can at least wrap my head around it. Moon landing a hoax? The evidence doesn’t bear it out, but I can sort of see why someone might think that. But the Twin Towers _didn’t_ fall because of the jets loaded with enough fuel for a translantic flight that the entire world saw slam into them on live television? It was something _else?_ I just don’t get it at all. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/51 "2009-05-21T22:27:00Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I’d say that they certainly used it to invade Iraq…and that oil was a major factor. Oh, not to ‘steal’ it, a la Der Trihs…but because of it’s strategic importance to the US and the fact that we didn’t want a loose cannon like Saddam to control so much of it. We also wanted to demonstrate US military and political might in the region (and didn’t THAT work out well??), as well as basing and staging areas in order to be able to respond to any future dust ups that might occur. At a guess we also wanted to threaten Iran, Syria, Libya, etc etc…and demonstrate to them what could happen to them if they fucked up in a similar way to Iraq and Saddam. > > Bush et al essentially used the attack on the US as one big excuse to knock off Saddam and Iraq…and they fucked us all by doing so. > > -XT Agreed! Kudos to you on this. I think it may have just been a personal thing. Didn’t H.W. Bush (daddy) say that the mountainous regions of Iraq are impossible to control… or something to that effect when he was in office? Maybe Dubya just wanted to say, neener neeener to Dad and try to stump his theory. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2009, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/52 "2009-05-21T22:30:17Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > I think it may have just been a personal thing. Didn’t H.W. Bush (daddy) say that the mountainous regions of Iraq are impossible to control… or something to that effect when he was in office? Maybe Dubya just wanted to say, neener neeener to Dad and try to stump his theory. **tomndebb** wrote up the most plausible explanation I’ve seen in post #23 of this thread. ---
**Author:** ![NYC\_Chic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@NYC\_Chic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NYC_Chic)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/53 "2009-05-22T14:21:40Z")
“_The data from the FRDs from both flight 77 and flight 93 were recovered and the data released. The Cockpit Voice Recorder was recovered from 93 and its transcript was released, not the audio, as in all airplane crashes. However, they did play the audio for family. The other boxes were never found_.” The FBI states, and also reported to the 9-11 Commission, that none of the recording devices from the two planes that hit the World Trade Center were ever recovered. There has always been some skepticism about this assertion, particularly as two N.Y. City firefighters, Mike Bellone and Nicholas De Masi, claimed in 2004 that they had found three of the four boxes, and that Federal agents took them and told the two men not to mention having found them. (The FBI denies the whole story.) Moreover, these devices are almost always located after crashes, even if not in useable condition (and the cleanup of the World Trade Center was meticulous, with even tiny bone fragments and bits of human tissue being discovered so that almost all the victims were ultimately identified). As Ted Lopatkiewicz, director of public affairs at the National Transportation Safety Agency which has the job of analyzing the boxes’ data, says, “It’s very unusual not to find a recorder after a crash, although it’s also very unusual to have jets flying into buildings.” Now there is stronger evidence that something is amiss than simply the alleged non-recovery of all four of those boxes. A source at the National Transportation Safety Board, the agency that has the task of deciphering the date from the black boxes retrieved from crash sites-including those that are being handled as crimes and fall under the jurisdiction of the FBI-says the boxes were in fact recovered and were analyzed by the NTSB. “Off the record, we had the boxes,” the source says. “You’d have to get the official word from the FBI as to where they are, but we worked on them here.” The official word from the NTSB is that the WTC crash site black boxes never turned up. “No recorders were recovered from the World Trade Center,” says the NTSB’s Lopatkiewicz. “At least none were delivered to us by the FBI.” [http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff12202005.html](http://www.counterpunch.org/lindorff12202005.html) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/54 "2009-05-22T14:32:04Z")
If that were true, **NYC\_Chic** , what would it prove, again? ---
**Author:** ![NYC\_Chic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@NYC\_Chic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NYC_Chic)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/55 "2009-05-22T14:39:39Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Your “theory” is wrong, not thought out at all (this is one step below “poorly thought out”) and offensive both to the truth and to the victims. What a cop out. :rolleyes: What’s “offensive to the truth and to the victims” is you taking a high and mighty tone like you _know_ any more than I do. Or implying that somehow you can speak for Truth or for the people who jumped out of building to their deaths that day. The official story keeps changing and there are too many parts of it that don’t make sense. I have a theory, you have another. But we should be able to debate both, because its **important**. What happened afterwards, the Patriot Act, the cameras everywhere, DNA collection, the government monitoring private communications, cops armed to the gills and dressed in future soldier costumes, all the exceptions to the Constitution, the Military Commissions Act and _etc._ makes 9/11/01 probably the most significant day in America’s history. It’s important. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/56 "2009-05-22T14:43:44Z")
> [@NYC\_Chic](#): > > What’s “offensive to the truth and to the victims” is you taking a high and mighty tone like you _know_ any more than I do. Based on what he’s posted, I think he does, and so do most people who don’t think the buildings were blown up by a government conspiracy. > [@](#): > > The official story keeps changing Which part? > [@](#): > > there are too many parts of it that don’t make sense. Which? > [@](#): > > I have a theory, you have another. But we should be able to debate both, because its **important**. Looks to me like we are. **Cisco** appealed to emotion but at a certain point you have to call this stuff for what it is. ---
**Author:** ![NYC\_Chic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@NYC\_Chic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NYC_Chic)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/57 "2009-05-22T14:43:58Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > If that were true, **NYC\_Chic** , what would it prove, again? It’s yet another one of the things that doesn’t make any sense. Why is there even a discrepancy about this? To all the people who are acting like they **know** what happened: you don’t even know whether or not the black boxes were found. Why _don’t_ you know that? ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/58 "2009-05-22T14:47:46Z")
> [@NYC\_Chic](#): > > There has always been some skepticism about this assertion, particularly as two N.Y. City firefighters, Mike Bellone and Nicholas De Masi, claimed in 2004 that they had found three of the four boxes, and that Federal agents took them and told the two men not to mention having found them. Bellone is not a credible source. For one, he says that he saw them while driving around workers in an ATV. What, they were lying on top of the rubble pile? Further, Bellone was a fraud. As summarized in Wikipedia: > [@Wikipedia](#): > > The New York Post reported in April 2004, shortly before the book was published, that Michael Bellone was in serious financial difficulty, owing more than $220,000 to his publisher as well as in unpaid bills, “including hotel rooms, flights, FDNY shirts, business cards and even prescription drugs.” Many have speculated that a possible motive for the “We found three [of the black boxes]” claim would have been to boost book sales, and there have been several recorded accounts of flight recorders being destroyed in aircraft accidents. On September 27, 2005, Michael Bellone, who had called himself an “honorary New York firefighter”, was arrested for stealing an FDNY Scott air tank, harness, regulator and mask, and was charged with grand larceny, criminal impersonation and possession of stolen property. Conrad Tinney, one of the New York Fire Marshals who arrested Bellone, described him as a “fraud” and stated, “He’s saying he was made an honorary firefighter by New York Fire Commissioner Nicholas Scoppetta. That’s a fallacy.” On September 28, 2005, it was revealed that Michael Bellone had been using the firefighter equipment, as well as other historical artifacts stolen from Ground Zero, as part of a charity fraud. An unnamed firefighter in a NY Daily News article said of Bellone’s book promotion and charity fraud that, “It’s very ghoulish. He may have helped firefighters at the time, but now he’s making a living on this.” > [@NYC\_Chic](#): > > Now there is stronger evidence that something is amiss than simply the alleged non-recovery of all four of those boxes. A source at the National Transportation Safety Board… “A source”? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/59 "2009-05-22T14:51:23Z")
> [@NYC\_Chic](#): > > It’s yet another one of the things that doesn’t make any sense. Why is there even a discrepancy about this? My guess would be that the FBI is being more secretive than it needs to be. What would you expect? It’s an intelligence agency and they don’t like scrutiny. Not a good thing, but also not proof that the government did it. Not compared to extensive examination of the collapse of the towers and common sense, for starters. ---
**Author:** ![NYC\_Chic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/f0a364/32.png) [@NYC\_Chic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NYC_Chic)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/60 "2009-05-22T14:56:11Z")
“\*There was? Can you provide documentation for this exercise?” \* BOSTON CENTER: Hi. Boston Center T.M.U. [Traffic Management Unit], we have a problem here. We have a hijacked aircraft headed towards New York, and we need you guys to, we need someone to scramble some F-16s or something up there, help us out. POWELL: Is this real-world or exercise? BOSTON CENTER: No, this is not an exercise, not a test. PLAY | PAUSE | STOP Powell’s question—“Is this real-world or exercise?”—is heard nearly verbatim over and over on the tapes as troops funnel onto the ops floor and are briefed about the hijacking. Powell, like almost everyone in the room, first assumes the phone call is from **the simulations team on hand to send “inputs”—simulated scenarios—into play for the day’s training exercise.** > **[9/11 Live: The NORAD Tapes](https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2006/08/norad200608?currentPage=2)** > > How did the U.S. Air Force respond on 9/11? Could it have shot down United 93, as conspiracy theorists claim? Obtaining 30 hours of never-before-released tapes from the control room of NORAD's Northeast head-quarters, the author reconstructs the... [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041.md?page=4)