# Give me your 9/11 conspiracy theories! And/or their debunking **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041 "2009-05-20T03:24:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 30
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/581 "2009-06-14T02:33:05Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > 3 skyscrapers, 2 hit by a plane apiece, all collapse in one day due to fire, first time in history, for total collapse due to fire for skyscrapers in a single day. Either the buildings weren’t built correctly or something else is going on. [Like the entire complex being exempt from building and fire codes? 7 was constructed on a site that had been prepped for a building with a smaller footprint. Rather than tearing up the existing foundation and redoing it, as much of 7 was placed over it as possible. This left the entire southern side off the existing foundation and no additional foundation was poured. 7’s southern side had no direct contact with the ground and sustained heavy damage from being pummeled by debris from 1 when that collapsed. 7 essentially split in two as it fell; a significant portion went to the north and caused irreparable damage to the roof and upper floors of 30 West Broadway–across the street! The rest went to the southwest and caused heavy damage to the lower floors of the Verizon building.]([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11217389&postcount=429](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11217389&postcount=429)) ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/582 "2009-06-14T02:46:27Z")
[QUOTE=Bryan Ekers] It must be true - I saw it on TV! [/QUOTE] As you have no doubt surmised, not everything you see on TV is true. I know…this will come as a shock and a deep moral blow to some, but it is none the less true. However… > [@](#): > > But what about the “enhance” function that can let you clearly see the plane in the reflection on a side mirror of a car in the parking lot? If the cameras are digital and have high resolution, and if the video system is set to capture at high resolution then yeah…you can ‘enhance’ the picture pretty well. We used to do a demonstration from one of our wireless trailers with a high resolution Sony PTZ camera where the camera would track a car at 100 yards and be able to zoom in on the license plate while the car was moving such that the license plate was clearly visible. And this wasn’t the top of the line digital camera either…just a $3k-$4k system. Once captured you could zoom in on other aspects of the video as well, down to some surprising details. Nothing like in the movies, of course, but still pretty cool. That said, however, my guess is that the exterior cameras at the Pentagon were probably analogue cameras of fairly low resolution and set to record only on motion…and discard motion in the upper zones of the fixed frame. No doubt the cameras watching the various entrances were of higher resolution, but cameras that would have been pointed where the plane came in would have probably just been fixed point analogues or maybe PTZ’s but with old style analogue cameras. I worked at the Pentagon during the 90’s and that’s what they had then, anyway, and I seriously doubt they would have upgraded them significantly by 2001. -XT ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 9:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/583 "2009-06-14T09:12:32Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Also, a lot of security cameras don’t record continuously…instead they are generally in stand by mode and switch on (after a 3-6 sec delay) on motion or other trigger. ETA: This is for record only, they are generally ‘on’ wrt real time video to the security outposts. When you set up a security camera that is external you almost always put in an exclusion zone above your expected target (as you say, they are designed to video capture PEOPLE…not birds, clouds or moving trees). The reason you don’t generate video continuously (for recording) is that video is very bandwidth and memory intensive stuff, especially if we are talking about higher level resolution (the Pentagon cameras were analogue cameras at that time btw on their own closed circuit). It would take a huge amount of hard drive space for even a single camera on continuous record…multiply that by many cameras and it would be unsupportable, especially in the early 2000’s. Even today with video compression and such you never have all of the cameras recording continuously…so you set exclusion zones so that your systems don’t trigger on the movement of things like birds, trees blowing, clouds, shadows, etc. > > And on this topic I DO actually have some level of expertise…I worked for a security company as their principal IT engineer for about 2 years, and we designed and installed video security systems. I also was tangentially familiar with the Pentagon’s security system, at least WRT the Navy’s piece. Anyone attempting to say that the video cameras should have captured good video of the planes impacting the Pentagon basically doesn’t know what they are talking about. It would be pure luck to capture a good image, especially with the older, analogue camera systems and older DVR’s or AtD systems. > > -XT Yes, but we are talking about one of the most important buildings in the US here. Are you telling me that a helicopter landing pad situated more or less along the line of the plane’s approach, would not have had 24/7 monitoring by a human being, able to zoom onto said heli-pad and determine that whoever was about to land was who they said they were? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 9:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/584 "2009-06-14T09:39:29Z")
Another question: didn’t bin Laden have family living in the USA at the time of the attacks? If so, why were they not used as a bargaining tool against him, instead of being allowed to surreptitiously leave the country? Considering the crime bin Laden was wanted for, it would have been worth it for the govt. and military to allow some “rogue soldiers” to kidnap them and hold them for ransom. Come on, explain to me why that wouldn’t be a more worthwhile ploy than sending thousands of troops across the other side of the world? ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 10:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/585 "2009-06-14T10:19:17Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Another question: didn’t bin Laden have family living in the USA at the time of the attacks? If so, why were they not used as a bargaining tool against him, instead of being allowed to surreptitiously leave the country? Considering the crime bin Laden was wanted for, it would have been worth it for the govt. and military to allow some “rogue soldiers” to kidnap them and hold them for ransom. Wait a second - your proof for the U.S. government acting in an underhanded manner is that the U.S. government did NOT act in an underhanded manner? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 10:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/586 "2009-06-14T10:30:02Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Wait a second - your proof for the U.S. government acting in an underhanded manner is that the U.S. government did NOT act in an underhanded manner? When did I say the US govt. was responsible? People within it, and influential allies would be more likely. You’ll say that is totally impossible, but I say as long as there is a Black Budget and Black Op’s, you can never know for sure. Do you know who is holding the purse-strings for these ventures? You want suspects? Anyone deeply involved in the military-industrial complex or armaments supplying, has to be a dodgy bastard and have some dodgy ‘friends’, and they are the ones who’ve made a profit out of all the mayhem since.. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/587 "2009-06-14T11:47:58Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Another question: didn’t bin Laden have family living in the USA at the time of the attacks? If so, why were they not used as a bargaining tool against him, instead of being allowed to surreptitiously leave the country? Considering the crime bin Laden was wanted for, it would have been worth it for the govt. and military to allow some “rogue soldiers” to kidnap them and hold them for ransom. Osama has been disowned by his family and he doesn’t give a damn about them. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/588 "2009-06-14T11:50:50Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Yes, but we are talking about one of the most important buildings in the US here. One which prefers to use human security over cameras. > [@](#): > > Are you telling me that a helicopter landing pad situated more or less along the line of the plane’s approach, would not have had 24/7 monitoring by a human being, able to zoom onto said heli-pad and determine that whoever was about to land was who they said they were? Are you denying all the massive amounts of evidence that a plane hit the Pentagon to whine about cameras not being set up to your satisfaction? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/589 "2009-06-14T11:52:15Z")
Another quicky - what’s the story on all the data that was held in the 3 buildings, especially the stuff from the ‘emergency command centre’ and other important sections of WTC7? Was no effort made to rescue this information prior to the collapse, or afterwards, or was it consigned to the rubbish dumps and history? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/590 "2009-06-14T12:00:02Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Osama has been disowned by his family and he doesn’t give a damn about them. And you believe that happy horse-shit? Or more importantly, your ‘intelligence’ services believed it? > [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > One which prefers to use human security over cameras. So, they must have had a man in a cubicle nearby keeping an eye on that heli-pad then, or did they just check on it, now and again? > [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Are you denying all the massive amounts of evidence that a plane hit the Pentagon to whine about cameras not being set up to your satisfaction? Nope, just curious why the Pentagon would have a security lapse that would allow someone to land a helicopter within a 100 ft of it. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/591 "2009-06-14T12:15:59Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > And you believe that happy horse-shit? Or more importantly, your ‘intelligence’ services believed it? The world seems to believe it, Osama seems to believe it. Seems ironclad to me, especially in light of your complete lack of evidence otherwise. > [@](#): > > So, they must have had a man in a cubicle nearby keeping an eye on that heli-pad then, or did they just check on it, now and again? Probably a man/Marine on duty. Why do you have a problem with that? > [@](#): > > Nope, just curious why the Pentagon would have a security lapse that would allow someone to land a helicopter within a 100 ft of it. And do what? Storm a wall? Anyone coming off that helipad still has to enter the building, and that means through security. WHy aren’t you curious as to why the ‘world’s most secure building’ has [TOURS](http://www.dtic.mil/ref/html/Welcome/tours.html) You have some funny ideas about what security needs to do. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/592 "2009-06-14T12:18:09Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Another quicky - what’s the story on all the data that was held in the 3 buildings, especially the stuff from the ‘emergency command centre’ and other important sections of WTC7? Was no effort made to rescue this information prior to the collapse, or afterwards, or was it consigned to the rubbish dumps and history? Oh please, are you suggesting that WTC7 was destroyed to get rid of data? As an answer to your question: it would depend on the individual agency as to what the policy of off-site backups would have been. The Secret Service doesn’t work the same was as the Mayor, and so on. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 12:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/593 "2009-06-14T12:27:42Z")
> [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > The world seems to believe it, Osama seems to believe it. Seems ironclad to me, especially in light of your complete lack of evidence otherwise. Call it a gut-feeling. What evidence do we have that it’s true again? > [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > Probably a man/Marine on duty. Why do you have a problem with that? I imagine he was one of the main plane witnesses then, or was he doing a crossword? > [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > And do what? Storm a wall? Anyone coming off that helipad still has to enter the building, and that means through security. > > WHy aren’t you curious as to why the ‘world’s most secure building’ has [TOURS](http://www.dtic.mil/ref/html/Welcome/tours.html) They are not allowed to do tours in helicopters, are they? > [@Mr.Miskatonic](#): > > You have some funny ideas about what security needs to do. Keep a place secure, or at least have a record of it when there’s a breach. Seems simple enough. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/594 "2009-06-14T12:59:00Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Call it a gut-feeling. What evidence do we have that it’s true again? Seems that every intelligence agency, including ones not sympathetic to the US, seem to think so. Saudi Arabia de-citizened him. > [@](#): > > I imagine he was one of the main plane witnesses then, or was he doing a crossword? I do not know. He might be off duty or elsewhere when no helicopters are expected. Either way it does not matter since there are plenty of witnesses and evidence that a plane hit the Pentagon. > [@](#): > > They are not allowed to do tours in helicopters, are they? What is your point? You were complaining about cameras at the helipad would be needed to check to see if someone arrived off a helicopter as if that were more important than checks at security, now when I point out there are tours you go off as if helicopters are some kind of magic security buster. > [@](#): > > Keep a place secure, or at least have a record of it when there’s a breach. Seems simple enough. Where is the breach of security here? No-one infiltrated the Pentagon, unless you call ‘slamming a plane into it’ to be ‘infiltrating’. And once again, why are you so concerned about nitpicky details about cameras not being where _you_ say they should be when there is hordes of evidence that a plane hit the Pentagon? What is your problem with the evidence we have, why do we need a market quality video of the event for you to be satisfied? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/595 "2009-06-14T15:22:41Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > As you have no doubt surmised, not everything you see on TV is true. I know…this will come as a shock and a deep moral blow to some, but it is none the less true. This is hardly the time or place to challenge my beloved albeit unsupported beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/596 "2009-06-14T15:36:24Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Are you telling me that a helicopter landing pad situated more or less along the line of the plane’s approach, would not have had 24/7 monitoring by a human being, able to zoom onto said heli-pad and determine that whoever was about to land was who they said they were? What are you talking about? Zoom in? Humans can’t zoom in. Have you not noticed the control tower next to the helipad? If a helicopter were due to come in, I’m sure there would be someone in the control tower. If a helicopter were not expected, I’m not sure what their procedure is, but I can’t imagine how that’s a security weakness if it’s unattended. The helipad is simply a concrete pad with an “H” on it. It’s not as if some Joe Blow can land his helicopter on that chunk of concrete and then have open access to the Pentagon. Please take a few seconds to think this stuff through - you’re spouting craziness! > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Another quicky - what’s the story on all the data that was held in the 3 buildings, especially the stuff from the ‘emergency command centre’ and other important sections of WTC7? Was no effort made to rescue this information prior to the collapse, or afterwards, or was it consigned to the rubbish dumps and history? I’m not sure what the story is with that data, but I know that among the _worst_ ways you could possibly try to get rid of data, would be to place it in a collapsing skyscraper. Have you ever heard of a paper shredder? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/597 "2009-06-14T16:21:07Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Another quicky - what’s the story on all the data that was held in the 3 buildings, especially the stuff from the ‘emergency command centre’ and other important sections of WTC7? You are aware that usable hard drives were recovered from 7, yes? ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/598 "2009-06-14T17:00:01Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Another quicky - Why do you get to keep asking questions but you continue to refuse to answer them? This is Great **Debates** , not Great ivanball games. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/599 "2009-06-14T17:51:42Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > What are you talking about? Zoom in? Humans can’t zoom in. The Flash can! ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/600 "2009-06-14T19:34:50Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Why do you get to keep asking questions but you continue to refuse to answer them? This is Great **Debates** , not Great ivanball games. Because my questions apparently have factual answers, which you’ve all been very kind to provide, but the question you have asked me, ie “What do I think happened?”, can only be answered with suppositions. Some of you have been bouncing this subject about since day one; I only got online in late '06, and there’s still a lot to take in. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041.md?page=29) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041.md?page=31)