# Give me your 9/11 conspiracy theories! And/or their debunking **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041 "2009-05-20T03:24:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 42
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/821 "2009-06-27T00:44:43Z")
> [@psikeyhackr](#): > > **ROFL** > > I have already sent him an email of my collapse video more than a month ago. > > NO RESPONSE. > > psik Oh, there is a response already that applies to almost all the CTs: [http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/911NutPhysics.HTM](http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/PSEUDOSC/911NutPhysics.HTM) > [@](#): > > “I have read what you said on the internet about the collapse of the towers. First I find it unprofessional the constant use of pejorative to make your case…” > > Really? 9-11 conspiracy buffs can slander government officials, accuse them of mass murder and conspiracy, and ridicule their critics, and I’m being pejorative? If people are going to talk like that they should at least have the guts to take criticism. The conspiracy buffs supposedly have the courage to expose a massive high level conspiracy, but they whine like pre-schoolers when anyone attacks their ideas. Some courage. They can play these games because they know perfectly well that nobody is really going to do anything to them no matter how much they blather about conspiracies. It’s all play acting. How else can you call bull$\*\*\* what it is without being pejorative? > > The amazing thing is this guy can slander people he’s never met and who have done him no harm, and somehow he thinks that is acceptable professional behavior. You can’t have a meaningful conversation about professionalism with this guy any more than you can play chess with a duck. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/822 "2009-06-27T00:52:36Z")
> [@psikeyhackr](#): > > If you look at the column cross sections on this site: > > [All Pages - Wtcmodel](http://wtcmodel.wikidot.com/system:list-all-pages) > > you will notice that the columns got a lot thicker toward the bottom.. Your brilliant professor says nothing about that. Piffle. If you are so brilliant let us see you publish a paper in a respected physics journal describing your amazing insights or I just have to dismiss you as just an irrelevant pretender. > [@](#): > > It should be obvious by the very nature of skyscraperS. The further you get from the top the greater the total weight that has to be supported. That means putting in more steel which means more mass would have to be bent, dislocated and ACCELERATED for the entire structure to come down in less than 18 seconds. Ye Olde Conservation of Momentum is a serious problem. No, you have not demonstrated anything. > [@](#): > > So why can’t the nation that put men on the Moon give everyone some simple data on a couple of buildings designed before the Moon landing? Because we do not need to assume that everything is an spherical cow. > **[Uncertain Principles](https://steelypips.org/principles/2003_03_30_principlearchive.php)** > > Uncertain Principles: A Web Log > [@](#): > > Of course, hand in hand with knowing how to make the “spherical cow” approximation to render a problem soluble goes the knowledge of when not to make those kind of approximations. **Excessive zeal in making simplifying assumptions** is the bane of more than a few physicists, and whole fields of social science. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/823 "2009-06-27T01:05:19Z")
Incidentally **psikeyhackr** , on your “responses” everyone can see here that you decided to ignore or reply to the points of the professor. Pretending that by sending him a copy of your video that then you are dealing with what the professor is reporting and calculating was pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![psikeyhackr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/97f17d/32.png) [@psikeyhackr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psikeyhackr)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/824 "2009-06-27T02:10:40Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Incidentally **psikeyhackr** , on your “responses” everyone can see here that you decided to ignore or reply to the points of the professor. > > Pretending that by sending him a copy of your video that then you are dealing with what the professor is reporting and calculating was pathetic. You can look at his site yourself and the cross sections of the columns on Lon Waters’ site. It is absurd to talk about a skyscraper having a uniform distribution of steel. The building could not stand if designed that way. You can be as impressed by the word PROFESSOR as you like. The laws of physics do not care. > [@](#): > > To: dutchs@gbms01.uwgb.edu > Cc: [kbarrett@merr.com](mailto:kbarrett@merr.com) > Subject: Mass, Momentum and its Conservation > Date: Sat, 18 Apr 2009 09:34:27 +0800 > Greetings & Salutations, > > This came from your site at: > [http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/pseudosc/911nutphysics.htm](http://www.uwgb.edu/dutchs/pseudosc/911nutphysics.htm) > > * * * > > Nutty 9-11 Physics > > In other words, the momentum (which equals mass times velocity) of the 12 to 28 stories (WTC 1 and WTC 2, respectively) falling on the supporting structure below (which was designed to support only the static weight of the floors above and not any dynamic effects due to the downward momentum) so greatly exceeded the strength capacity of the structure below that it (the structure below) was unable to stop or even to slow the falling mass. The downward momentum felt by each successive lower floor was even larger due to the increasing mass. > > * * * > > There is the little matter of the falling mass not only having to break the supports but also accelerate that stationary mass. > > Here is a physical demonstration: > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXAerZUw4Wc](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LXAerZUw4Wc) > > My falling mass “so greatly exceeded the strength capacity of the structure below” That it broke an average of 17.75 toothpicks. But adding mass to those toothpicks reduced the average to 6.64. So mass DID NOT INCREASE the destruction, it reduced it. > > But of course there is the annoying problem that after SEVEN YEARS we don’t have a table telling us the TONS of STEEL and TONS of CONCRETE on each and every level of the towers. The NIST does not even specify the total for the concrete. How can the impacts of the airliners be properly analyzed without that distribution of mass information? > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0kUICwO93Q](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0kUICwO93Q) > > It is certainly curious that our engineering schools are not making a BID DEAL of not having it after all of this time. I suppose those models were to complex and expensive for our engineering schools that charge $100,000+ for four years. psik ---
**Author:** ![psikeyhackr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/97f17d/32.png) [@psikeyhackr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psikeyhackr)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/825 "2009-06-27T02:17:28Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Piffle. > > If you are so brilliant let us see you publish a paper in a respected physics journal describing your amazing insights or I just have to dismiss you as just an irrelevant pretender. You can piffle all you want. Why can’t you figure out the grade school physics of a skyscraper needing to be bottom heavy? If you can figure that out then why haven’t you been demanding to know the distribution of steel for years now. This has dragged on too long. The problem can’t be solved now without a lot of people making themselves look STUPID. We don’t even have the data on the tons of steel in the impact zones. How does that not get mentioned for SEVEN YEARS? ![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/XWN7T5ryljU/maxresdefault.jpg)https://www.youtube.com/embed/XWN7T5ryljU?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque psik ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/826 "2009-06-27T02:32:29Z")
> [@psikeyhackr](#): > > You can piffle all you want. > > Why can’t you figure out the grade school physics of a skyscraper needing to be bottom heavy? If you can figure that out then why haven’t you been demanding to know the distribution of steel for years now. This has dragged on too long. The problem can’t be solved now without a lot of people making themselves look STUPID. > > We don’t even have the data on the tons of steel in the impact zones. How does that not get mentioned for SEVEN YEARS? > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWN7T5ryljU](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWN7T5ryljU) > > psik Meh. Repeating your link will not help at all. Speaking of dragging, you should be able to show how wrong the professor is, but I do think you are smart enough to know that in this message board there are indeed people that will demonstrate with simple logic and better physics how you are missing the point. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/827 "2009-06-27T02:42:11Z")
> [@psikeyhackr](#): > > You can look at his site yourself and the cross sections of the columns on Lon Waters’ site. It is absurd to talk about a skyscraper having a uniform distribution of steel. The building could not stand if designed that way. You can be as impressed by the word PROFESSOR as you like. The laws of physics do not care. > > psik Meh, the only thing you showed was just a demonstration of a waste of time. A simulation based on assumptions and very little real life numbers and physics does not triumph over very educated assumptions and more realistic physics. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/828 "2009-06-27T03:59:58Z")
From Lute Skywatcher’s link: > [@](#): > > conspiracy to murder U.S. nationals outside the United States That’s the damdest thing about this situation. There actually is a conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/829 "2009-06-27T05:11:58Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > That’s the damdest thing about this situation. There actually is a conspiracy. No, it’s not very damned. Conspiracies happen all the time. There is a difference between a conspiracy and a Conspiracy Theory. And there is a big difference between a conspiracy, a Conspiracy Theory, and a conspiracy by the US government to destroy 4 commercial airliners, 3 of the most important buildings in the country, and murder thousands of its own citizens. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/830 "2009-06-27T05:21:00Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > No, it’s not very damned. Conspiracies happen all the time. There is a difference between a conspiracy and a Conspiracy Theory. And there is a big difference between a conspiracy, a Conspiracy Theory, and a conspiracy by the US government to destroy 4 commercial airliners, 3 of the most important buildings in the country, and murder thousands of its own citizens. Sure. But I’m not advancing these demolition theories. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/831 "2009-06-27T05:23:21Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Sure. But I’m not advancing these demolition theories. Right. You just want there to be more to it . . . [Caruso puts on his sunglasses] . . . _than meets the eye._ ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/832 "2009-06-27T05:24:34Z")
I just want to say that \*\*Valgard’\*\*s explanations are the clearest I’ve seen. While before I didn’t have the book-larnin’ to put into words and formulae what he/she described, I now understand better the physics behind what I used to think was only “patently obvious to the casual observer.” Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/833 "2009-06-27T05:56:28Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > Right. You just want there to be more to it . . . [Caruso puts on his sunglasses] . . . _than meets the eye._ I am always suspicious of anyone who posits what I want, or think, or puts words in my mouth. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/834 "2009-06-27T06:12:03Z")
But sometimes, Grasshopper, you only know what you want, but not what you need. It is foolish to feed children a diet of ice cream and potato chips, but that is what you want. ---
**Author:** ![Valgard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/7feea3/32.png) [@Valgard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valgard)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 6:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/835 "2009-06-27T06:14:02Z")
> [@psikeyhackr](#): > > First of all let us distinguish between FLOORS and LEVELS. Because of the way the towers were constructed when some people say FLOORS they mean those square donut floor slabs that were connected to the core on the inner edge and the perimeter columns on the outer edge. > > When I say level I mean all of the material within a 12 foot height including one floor slab and 12 feet of core columns and the beams connecting the core columns and 12 feet of the perimeter wall panels. Now as you go down the the core columns and the perimeter columns HAD TO GET STRONGER. So the levels got stronger and heavier even though the FLOORS remained the same. > > The reason I said top 10% by volume because the building had to become less dense toward the top. My point is the we don’t have the data specifying that in detail. > > This website shows the the cross sectional areas of the core columns. It is created by Lon Waters who I have exchanged emails with. He does not have info on the beams in the core or details on the exterior wall panels. > > [All Pages - Wtcmodel](http://wtcmodel.wikidot.com/system:list-all-pages) > > psik I’m using “floor” in the sense of the entire structural network at any given horizontal section of the building. I don’t mean only the actual floor slab. We can call it a level if you prefer. If you go back and read that entire post again you’ll notice that I specifically address what you’re saying. Any particular cross-section is obviously strong enough to hold the weight of everything above it. It’s strong enough to hold more than the weight above it (for a variety of reasons including safety factors and the other loads that we’re ignoring for purpose of this discussion). But it was not strong enough to hold the weight of everything above it when “everything” suddenly dropped down several feet. Which means that the first section that failed gets crushed and the whole mess drops down onto the next section, which fails under the impact just like the floor above it, and so on - that’s a progressive collapse. If you just built an exact duplicate of the ground floor in a test lab and then built a copy of the top, say, ten floors and dropped them a couple of feet onto the ground floor it might have held up - since the ground floor was designed to carry 110 floors worth of building that might handle 10 floors at 10G. But that is NOT what happened. All of those floors between #1 and wherever the collapse began did not just magically disappear. The vast majority of all that stuff went straight down, it didn’t fly out to the sides. **So the ground floor was subjected to a big multiple of its design capacity.** Notice that we did not have to make any assumptions about how much each particular floor weighs, either. Do you disagree that if you drop a weight some distance onto a surface that it will generate a peak force greater than the same weight sitting still? You don’t have to take my word for it, go do the really simple basic highschool-level physics equations yourself, or better yet try it out. Here’s a simple experiment: Rest a brick on your toes. Now take that same brick, hold it up at shoulder level and drop it into your toes. Which trial produced more damage to your toes? [QUOTE=dropzone] I just want to say that **Valgard** ’s explanations are the clearest I’ve seen. While before I didn’t have the book-larnin’ to put into words and formulae what he/she described, I now understand better the physics behind what I used to think was only “patently obvious to the casual observer.” Thank you. [/QUOTE] “He” And thanks! ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/836 "2009-06-27T06:26:24Z")
> [@Valgard](#): > > “He” Yeah, well THAT was obvious, you being an Engineering Geek. I just tried to play that it wasn’t. 😉 ETA: Worked with some women who had to contend with Not Being Guys. This was the Early Days, so some went with using initials while others got jobs outside the field. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/837 "2009-06-27T06:29:42Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > But sometimes, Grasshopper, you only know what you want, but not what you need. It is foolish to feed children a diet of ice cream and potato chips, but that is what you want. That’s all fine and good. Today by pure chance I had lunch with some Department of State scholar of the Afghanistan situation. His opinions were (in short): -the world probably passed peak oil a few years ago -everyone would love a trans-Afghanistan pipeline (excepting a lot of Afghans), only it isn’t practical. It could potentially benefit India the most -the real ‘prize’ (as he put it several times) is a pipeline from the Caspian through Iran to the Persian Gulf -there is no intention to force this Iranian route militarily Then there is the actual deal for the [trans-Iran](http://www.dawn.com/wps/wcm/connect/dawn-content-library/dawn/news/business/09-iran-pakistan-sign-gas-pipeline-deal-media-szh--07) pipeline. The yak yak went on and on, it is hard to summarize. The main point in the Afghan conflict discussion was that a major offensive at the beginning would have netted Bin Laden at staved off much of the insurgency. Instead we’re looking at a decades-long occupancy. Not the result of conspiracy, but rather incompetence. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/838 "2009-06-27T06:30:35Z")
(rant) How the FUCK can a profession hope to survive without asking HALF of the population to join? Idiots. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/839 "2009-06-27T06:40:19Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > That’s all fine and good. Your friend is a moron. It’s a TERRIBLE place to put a pipeline, and was since BEFORE the local warlords started carving up Afghanistan. Which was, oh, 3- or 4000 years ago. I suggest that your friend is not nearly as high up as you claim, if he exists (as you describe him) at all. I believe you have dabbled with the realm of “making shit up” to support your baseless claims. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2009, 7:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/840 "2009-06-27T07:22:54Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Not the result of conspiracy, but rather incompetence. . . . which we tried to tell you, counting the other thread, about 1,100 posts ago. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041.md?page=41) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041.md?page=43)