# Give me your 9/11 conspiracy theories! And/or their debunking **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041 "2009-05-20T03:24:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 56
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1101 "2009-07-16T18:37:06Z")
If you want to know how much steel was in the fire, go look up the WTC building plans. The information isn’t being concealed. Whatever the quantity of the steel, and the quantity of burning furniture, the latter affected the former, or do you have an alternate theory which we’ve yet to hear? ---
**Author:** ![Meatwad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5fc32e/32.png) [@Meatwad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatwad)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1102 "2009-07-16T19:46:59Z")
> [@psikeyhackr](#): > > **ROFL** > > How can the top falling block of the north tower impact and crush the lower stationary portion without being damaged itself? So how do 14 stories of the north tower remain intact while crushing 95 stories that get stronger all of the way down but then disintegrate when the reach to bottom. Still waiting. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1103 "2009-07-16T20:00:59Z")
14 ain’t 30! ---
**Author:** ![Meatwad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5fc32e/32.png) [@Meatwad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatwad)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1104 "2009-07-16T20:03:30Z")
> [@psikeyhackr](#): > > So which analysis told you how much steel was in the fire? I have not seen that anywhere yet. > > Isn’t the quantity of steel going to affect the temperature in could reach in **LESS THAN TWO HOURS**? > > Doesn’t the weight of a frozen turkey affect the time it takes to cook? > > psik E4 & E5 [http://www.scribd.com/doc/295093/NIST-Mechanical-and-Metallurgical-Analysis-of-WTC-Structural-Steel](http://www.scribd.com/doc/295093/NIST-Mechanical-and-Metallurgical-Analysis-of-WTC-Structural-Steel) ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1105 "2009-07-16T20:28:52Z")
> [@psikeyhackr](#): > > So which analysis told you how much steel was in the fire? I have not seen that anywhere yet. > > Isn’t the quantity of steel going to affect the temperature in could reach in **LESS THAN TWO HOURS**? Moving the goalposts noted - my answer to you was in response to your cries about the amount of energy used in moving the building. Since you didn’t reply, I assume that you’re dropping the issue of how much of the plane’s energy was used to move the building those 12 inches. Can you verify that this is the case? To answer your current question, no, it doesn’t really matter how much steel there was. Put steel in a fire for more than a few minutes and it fully heats up. It doesn’t matter whether you’re talking 1000 steel beams or 5000 steel beams. Why do you think that matters? ---
**Author:** ![BigBertha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d78d45/32.png) [@BigBertha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigBertha)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1106 "2009-07-16T21:45:55Z")
I Love conspiracy theories. One I’ve heard about this is the planes were not flown even, they were remote controlled from ground somewhere, the hijackers didn’t even know what was going on. Is this technology possible and what are the flaws/ pros of it? thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1107 "2009-07-16T21:57:01Z")
> [@Tamara+](#): > > I Love conspiracy theories. One I’ve heard about this is the planes were not flown even, they were remote controlled from ground somewhere, the hijackers didn’t even know what was going on. > Is this technology possible and what are the flaws/ pros of it? > thanks. It’s possible in the general sense that planes can be flown remotely, but it demonstrably didn’t happen in this case. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1108 "2009-07-16T22:01:58Z")
It’s the most plausible of the CT’s on this subject. Sure, you COULD remote control the plane, especially if you set it up to do that. Heck, planes today can be remote flown and landed, if you have the proper access and codes. Certainly one could do a MythBuster’s style remote control of a plane easily enough. Of course, there is no evidence that this happened. But it’s at least plausible…unlike the controlled demolition of the buildings CT, or the cruise missile into the Pentagon CT, or even the plane over Penn. shot down CT. -XT ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1109 "2009-07-16T22:07:39Z")
> [@Tamara+](#): > > I Love conspiracy theories. One I’ve heard about this is the planes were not flown even, they were remote controlled from ground somewhere, the hijackers didn’t even know what was going on. > Is this technology possible and what are the flaws/ pros of it? > thanks. Sure, it’s possible. We remotely fly the Global Hawk for military uses. But airliners have not been fitted with this kind of capability - it would take a team of hundreds of people, working for a year or more (my guess) to get it working for an airliner, and after the attacks, each one would be a giant risk to the conspiracy. Just one person with a conscience and the lid’s blown. The ugly truth is that you don’t need high tech remote-control if you have people willing to die when doing the job by hand. ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1110 "2009-07-16T22:08:53Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Heck, planes today can be remote flown and landed, if you have the proper access and codes. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1111 "2009-07-16T22:17:17Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Cite? > **[Autoland](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoland)** > > In aviation, autoland describes a system that fully automates the landing procedure of an aircraft's flight, with the flight crew supervising the process. Such systems enable airliners to land in weather conditions that would otherwise be dangerous or impossible to operate in. > A few general aviation aircraft have begun to be fitted with "emergency autoland" systems that can be activated by passengers, or by automated crew monitoring systems. The emergency autoland systems are designed to complet... ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1112 "2009-07-16T22:54:44Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > [Autoland - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autoland) That’s not remote. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 16, 2009, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1113 "2009-07-16T22:57:33Z")
[QUOTE=CurtC] Cite? [/QUOTE] I withdraw the comment. A quick Google search didn’t turn up what I thought I remembered (which was that the automatic navigation and remote landing feature on an airliner could be remotely accessed with the correct codes), and even if I’m not misremembering, it doesn’t really have anything to do with the actual discussion. Withdrawn. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 5:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1114 "2009-07-17T05:13:00Z")
Well… I saw this issue in another thread, and thought it might be good fodder over here. Debunk this: There is no evidence of material transaction from the Taliban to AQ. Ok, sure, I know there have been links to communications between the groups. One post was Time magazine, in which CNN and Prince Turki Faisal (an alleged Saudi AQ funder) are also involved… I did the breakdown way up thread. Talk is one thing. Transaction is another. Got any Taliban -\> AQ transaction proof? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1115 "2009-07-17T05:30:41Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Well… I saw this issue in another thread, and thought it might be good fodder over here. > > Debunk this: > There is no evidence of material transaction from the Taliban to AQ. > > Ok, sure, I know there have been links to communications between the groups. One post was Time magazine, in which CNN and Prince Turki Faisal (an alleged Saudi AQ funder) are also involved… I did the breakdown way up thread. > > Talk is one thing. Transaction is another. > > Got any Taliban -\> AQ transaction proof? 😕 So they allowed AQ/Osama to use their caves and mountains and that is not considered a transaction? I wonder if Germany would had accepted that when we gave Great Britain the land lease program that that was not a material transaction so it was silly for Germany to suspect that we were helping Great Britain in WWII. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1116 "2009-07-17T05:32:22Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > Why do you think that matters? IMHO, there is a macabre interest in the exact specifics (physics, motives) of some individual’s death. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1117 "2009-07-17T05:34:45Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > 😕 > > So they allowed AQ/Osama to use their caves and mountains and that is not considered a transaction? The crux of my difficulty is ‘allowed’. I don’t think the Taliban had the last word on this. OBL predates the Taliban in the region, and presumably can muster more clout if it comes down to that. Am I wrong? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1118 "2009-07-17T13:57:14Z")
And around and around it goes. [QUOTE=Try2B Comprehensive] The crux of my difficulty is ‘allowed’. I don’t think the Taliban had the last word on this. [/QUOTE] Ok…why don’t you think this? What evidence are you using to determine it? You’ve been shown that there was a relationship between the Taliban and AQ…they INVITED AQ to come to Afghanistan after AQ was tossed out of their previous home. You obviously don’t accept this, for some reason…so, what’s the reason? What are you basing it on? > [@](#): > > OBL predates the Taliban in the region, and presumably can muster more clout if it comes down to that. Am I wrong? ObL was in Afghanistan during the formative years of the Taliban, yes. So what? Al Qaeda wasn’t in the region continuously during the civil war years after the Soviets left…they were in the Sudan (as has already been pointed out to you). I think I’ve linked to [this](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Qaeda) at least 4 times during this discussion with you…I REALLY wish you’d read it. > [@](#): > > Expanding operations > > Toward the end of the Soviet military mission in Afghanistan, some mujahedeen wanted to expand their operations to include Islamist struggles in other parts of the world, such as Israel and Kashmir. A number of overlapping and interrelated organizations were formed to further those aspirations. > > One of these was the organization that would eventually be called al-Qaeda, formed by Osama bin Laden with an initial meeting held on August 11, 1988.[50] Bin Laden wished to establish nonmilitary operations in other parts of the world; Azzam, in contrast, wanted to remain focused on military campaigns. After Azzam was assassinated in 1989, the MAK split, with a significant number joining bin Laden’s organization. > > In November 1989, Ali Mohamed, a former special forces Sergeant stationed at Fort Bragg, North Carolina, left military service and moved to Santa Clara, California. He traveled to Afghanistan and Pakistan and became “deeply involved with bin Laden’s plans.”[51] > > A year later, on November 8, 1990, the FBI raided the New Jersey home of Mohammed’s associate El Sayyid Nosair, discovering a great deal of evidence of terrorist plots, including plans to blow up New York City skyscrapers.[52] Nosair was eventually convicted in connection to the 1993 World Trade Center bombing, and for the murder of Rabbi Meir Kahane on November 5, 1990. In 1991, Ali Mohammed is said to have helped orchestrate Osama bin Laden’s relocation to Sudan.[53] > [@](#): > > Sudan > > From approximately 1992 to 1996, al-Qaeda and bin Laden were located in Sudan, coming at the invitation of Islamist theoretician Hassan al Turabi following an Islamist coup d’état, and leaving after being expelled by the Sudanese government. During this time bin Laden assisted the Sudanese government, bought or set up various business enterprises, and established training camps where insurgents trained. > > But in Sudan bin Laden lost his Saudi passport and source of income in response to his verbal attacks on the Saudi king.[57] A key turning point for bin Laden occurred in 1993 when Saudi Arabia gave support for the Oslo Accords which set a path for peace between Israel and Palestinians.[58] > > Zawahiri and the EIJ, who served as the core of al-Qaeda but also engaged in separate operations against the Egyptian government, had even worse luck in Sudan. In 1993, a young schoolgirl was killed in an unsuccessful EIJ attempt on the life of the Egyptian Interior Minister, Hasan al-Alfi. Egyptian public opinion turned against Islamist bombings and [59] the police arrested 280 more of al-Jihad’s members and executed six. > > In 1995 an even more ill-fated attempt to assassinate Egyptian president Mubarak led to the expulsion of EIJ and not long after of bin Laden by the Sudanese government. > [@](#): > > Refuge in Afghanistan > Main article: Taliban > > After the Soviet withdrawal, Afghanistan was effectively ungoverned for seven years and plagued by constant infighting between former allies and various mujahedeen groups. > > Throughout the 1990s, a new force began to emerge. The origins of the Taliban (literally “students”) lay in the children of Afghanistan, many of them orphaned by the war, and many of whom had been educated in the rapidly expanding network of Islamic schools (madrassas) either in Kandahar or in the refugee camps on the Afghan-Pakistani border. > > According to Ahmed Rashid, five leaders of the Taliban were graduates of a single madrassa, Darul Uloom Haqqania (also known as “the University of Jihad",)[60] in the small town of Akora Khattak near Peshawar, situated in Pakistan but largely attended by Afghan refugees.[61][unreliable source?][page needed] This institution reflected Salafi beliefs in its teachings, and much of its funding came from private donations from wealthy Arabs, for whom bin Laden provided conduit. A further four leading figures (including the perceived Taliban leader Mullah Mohammed Omar Mujahed) attended a similarly funded and influenced madrassa in Kandahar, Afghanistan. > > Many of the mujahedeen who later joined the Taliban fought alongside Afghan warlord Mohammad Nabi Mohammadi’s Harkat i Inqilabi group at the time of the Russian invasion. This group also enjoyed the loyalty of most Afghan Arab fighters. > > The continuing internecine strife between various factions, and accompanying lawlessness following the Soviet withdrawal, enabled the growing and well-disciplined Taliban to expand their control over territory in Afghanistan, and they came to establish an enclave which it called the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan. In 1994, they captured the regional center of Kandahar, and after making rapid territorial gains thereafter, conquered the capital city Kabul in September 1996. > > After Sudan made it clear that bin Laden and his group were no longer welcome that year, Taliban-controlled Afghanistan — with previously established connections between the groups, a similar outlook on world affairs and largely isolated from American political influence and military power — provided a perfect location for al-Qaeda to establish its headquarters. Al-Qaeda enjoyed the Taliban’s protection and a measure of legitimacy as part of their Ministry of Defense, although only Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates recognized the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan. > > Al-Qaeda training camps in Afghanistan and the Pakistani border regions are alleged to have trained militant Muslims from around the world.[62][63] Despite the perception of some people, al-Qaeda members are ethnically diverse and connected by their radical version of Islam. > > An ever-expanding network of supporters thus enjoyed a safe haven in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan until the Taliban were defeated by a combination of local forces and CIA Special Activities Division Paramilitary Officers, US Army Special Forces and air power in 2001 (see section September 11, attacks and the United States response). Osama bin Laden and other al-Qaeda leaders are still believed to be located in areas where the population is sympathetic to the Taliban in Afghanistan or the border Tribal Areas of Pakistan. There are better cites than this Wiki article if you do some Googling, but this one has a lot of the timeline data, even if it doesn’t go into much depth on each subject. But you don’t seem to want to hear any of this stuff. My question is, what are you driving at with all of this? Do you think that AQ forced it’s way into Afghanistan, that the Taliban really didn’t want them there but were powerless to do anything about it? Or do you think that AQ was always there and, again, the Taliban were powerless to do anything about it? Assuming that IS what you think, why do you think it? What do you base your conjecture on? Assuming this is what you think, and even assuming you were correct (you wouldn’t be), then…well, what difference does it make? AQ was STILL THERE…regardless of if the Taliban wanted them there or not. That’s where they bases were, that’s where their C&C was, that’s where the leadership was, the training and logistics facilities, etc etc. Whether the Taliban wanted AQ there or not is irrelevant…it’s where they were when they attacked us. The only choice the Taliban had was to work with the US or to oppose the US. It was a binary solution set. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Meatwad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5fc32e/32.png) [@Meatwad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatwad)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1119 "2009-07-17T16:47:53Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > It’s the most plausible of the CT’s on this subject. Sure, you COULD remote control the plane, especially if you set it up to do that. Heck, planes today can be remote flown and landed, if you have the proper access and codes. > > -XT It is very far fetched if not impossible. 767’s use old cable and pulley driven technology, endless motors and servos would have to be installed that would not show and not be discovered at pre-flight inspection. There is a huge question if there would even be room for the installation in the think walls of the plane. These and many other reasons why the idea is borderline preposterous are addressed below. (And we have not even addressed the huge latency issue) > **[911myths](https://web.archive.org/web/20191216033221/http://www.911myths.com/index.php?title=Main_Page)** ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2009, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1120 "2009-07-17T17:04:19Z")
Well, I said it’s the most plausible…that doesn’t mean it’s very plausible. > [@](#): > > These and many other reasons why the idea is borderline preposterous are addressed below. (And we have not even addressed the huge latency issue) When the air lines test planes for a crash they use, afaik, remote controls. I don’t think this would be TOO hard to accomplish, though it would take extensive refitting of the air craft. The things that make this highly unlikely are, A) The pilots would have noticed if someone was taking over the plane remotely (presumably they would have completely lost control of the plane at this point), and probably would have mentioned this in their radio transmissions (instead of mentioning the fact that they had been hijacked), and B) you couldn’t put in remote controlling system into the planes without the same kinds of extensive modifications that it would have taken to wire the buildings for explosive demo…IOW, it would have been pretty visible, especially while the work was being done. Again, I was simply saying that this is more probable than, say, the use of nano-thermite or whatever to bring the buildings down…which means it goes form totally whack job bughouse nuts to snow balls chance in hell probability. -XT [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041.md?page=55) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041.md?page=57)