# Give me your 9/11 conspiracy theories! And/or their debunking **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 20, 2009, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041 "2009-05-20T03:24:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 59
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1161 "2009-07-26T17:00:01Z")
Yeah, he was told. He doesn’t believe and/or thinks the whole invasion was ‘fishy’. -XT ---
**Author:** ![CurtC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CurtC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CurtC)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1162 "2009-07-26T17:36:40Z")
> [@psikeyhackr](#): > > With 100,000 tons of steel on 116 levels that is an average of 862 tons per level. And the steel in the columns is going to conduct between levels. You’re aware that steel is a poor conductor of heat, right? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1163 "2009-07-26T17:48:31Z")
> [@psikeyhackr](#): > > How many ovens can heat treat 100 tons at a time? > > With 100,000 tons of steel on 116 levels that is an average of 862 tons per level. And the steel in the columns is going to conduct between levels. So heating enough to weaken in less than 2 hours isn’t going to be an easy task. So since the amount of steel tapered up the building why shouldn’t we know the amount on each level to get a handle on this problem? > > We are just supposed to BELIEVE without asking? [[T]ake that Charleston furniture store fire. A 42,000 square foot steel frame collapsed after about 45 minutes after the fire started; why couldn’t a 40,000 square foot area around the 80th floor do the same in a similar amount of time? What would that mean for the floors above? The floors below?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=11359860&postcount=1145) ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1164 "2009-07-26T18:49:22Z")
It don’t matter how many Jenga blocks you got - you take out the bottom ones and they all come down. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1165 "2009-07-26T18:55:08Z")
Yah but what if you replace the Jenga blocks with toothpicks? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1166 "2009-07-26T19:00:41Z")
Then they don’t make so much noise when they fall. ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Miskatonic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mr.miskatonic/32/310_2.png) [@Mr.Miskatonic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Miskatonic)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1167 "2009-07-26T19:01:07Z")
> [@CurtC](#): > > You’re aware that steel is a poor conductor of heat, right? And when it heats up it gets worse. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1168 "2009-07-26T20:19:08Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > (ETA: Mods, did I go too far? Or if I have to ask, then ‘Yeah?’) Way too far. Don’t do this again. He is sticking to this single thread, so he is not harming the board. If he bothers you, stop opening the thread. [/Modding] ---
**Author:** ![Meatwad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/5fc32e/32.png) [@Meatwad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatwad)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1169 "2009-07-26T22:06:15Z")
> [@psikeyhackr](#): > > How many ovens can heat treat 100 tons at a time? > > With 100,000 tons of steel on 116 levels that is an average of 862 tons per level. And the steel in the columns is going to conduct between levels. So heating enough to weaken in less than 2 hours isn’t going to be an easy task. Answered over and over, no where near 862 tons had to heat, just a few key columns, once again. Wood vs. Steel. (Would you ask these questions if it was wood?) ![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/cESnH1xtenY/maxresdefault.jpg)https://www.youtube.com/embed/cESnH1xtenY?feature=oembed&wmode=opaque Fire [![](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_rLV-ZuNPwJ4/SDTMGkt1P5I/AAAAAAAABh4/HlT2FZTlEKQ/s400/NorthTowerFireGJS-WTC27cropped.jpg) ](http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_rLV-ZuNPwJ4/SDTMGkt1P5I/AAAAAAAABh4/HlT2FZTlEKQ/s400/NorthTowerFireGJS-WTC27cropped.jpg) Heavy Buckling. > **[Sign in - Google Accounts](https://accounts.google.com/v3/signin/identifier?continue=https%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2F911stories%2FST1.jpg%2FST1-full.jpg&dsh=S-1003335399%3A1771638816540909&followup=https%3A%2F%2Fsites.google.com%2Fsite%2F911stories%2FST1.jpg%2FST1-full.jpg&ifkv=ASfE1-oTEMumsjbB3wvA3D5xIc_hVTxhHfAPaBD1k4FKDGfjUPOx_AAf8yRd1tvaBvC_NG2QXL13DA&osid=1&passive=1209600&flowName=GlifWebSignIn&flowEntry=ServiceLogin)** ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 26, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1170 "2009-07-26T23:15:59Z")
> [@psikeyhackr](#): > > And the steel in the columns is going to conduct between levels. This is silly and, with all your (claims of) “research,” it looks even sillier. Go watch a farrier or an iron smith work, some time. When heat is applied to steel, only the portion directly in the flame actually turns color and becomes malleable. Sure, a certain amount of heat “travels” down the length of the piece being worked, but raising a bar to 180°F to make it hurt one’s hand is a long way from drawing off so much heat as to render the worked portion too cool to be malleable. In fact, only the section that is directly in the flame actually changes color and become workable. Just an inch or so from the flame, the bar remains dark as the heat is not sufficient to make it easier to shape. The idea that the entire skeleton of the WTC was a massive heat sink drawing off the heat from the flames of the burning floors is utter rubbish. ---
**Author:** ![zut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zut/32/2875_2.png) [@zut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zut)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1171 "2009-07-27T00:10:27Z")
> [@psikeyhackr](#): > > With 100,000 tons of steel on 116 levels that is an average of 862 tons per level. And the steel in the columns is going to conduct between levels. So heating enough to weaken in less than 2 hours isn’t going to be an easy task. So since the amount of steel tapered up the building why shouldn’t we know the amount on each level to get a handle on this problem? Although **Meatwad** essentially responded to this, I’m going to again point out that if you think a measurement of the steel mass on each floor is of more than tangential interest, then you clearly don’t understand the physics. Although it can be informative to educate yourself about combustion and heat transfer and kinetics and vibrations and so forth, and it’s even more informative to do some calculations and experiments, you’re not doing yourself any favors by fixating on irrelevant information, or performing incorrect calculations. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1172 "2009-07-27T13:16:53Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Especially since most of what you are asking for has either been provided to you or is available by simply using google to look it up. You have yet to say why it’s important, or what you are driving at, and basically no one is interested in the side discussion enough to make it worth their while to look up more info that you will ignore. You are the only one who seems to think our invasion of Afghanistan was ‘fishy’, after all. It seems pretty straight forward to just about everyone else. Nah… you’re just the guy who likes to talk to people in this kind of tone. Why it is important: -How many AQ guys from Sudan? If the answer is zero, it demonstrates that AQ is a function of Saudi money more than anything else. Bin Laden’s role is as a financial focal point. -Map of the camps? So we can know the map of the actual enemy locations, pretty obvious. -Description of the 1st war of military action? Mainly to show that it didn’t involve going after AQ, but conquering this territory instead. You say you’ve provided these answers or they’re easy to find, for the effect I guess, but AFAIK the info isn’t available. I wouldn’t bring it up otherwise. Please don’t repeat this point without a link. AQ an official part of the Afghan government? Really? Not OBL of course, but some guy who knows some guy who knows some guy is involved, right? I admit the details of this point are unclear to me. I do know that _both_ the Taliban and AQ were funded by the Saudis, which seems the relevant point. If some other point is more relevant and I missed it, well gee I’m really sorry if I haven’t assembled a perfect mosaic of the entire AQ-Taliban structure after wading through the insults for the actually relevant details the first time around. My suggestion, XT, is to not change the subject. Don’t go on about what you’ve already posted without a link- the questions above haven’t been answered. Don’t say what’s easy to Google- either post a link or respond to someone else. Spare me the speculations of what percentage of former posters have what opinion. Yah, this thread is a big mess and not well-titled, and I’m obviously not a graduate-level expert on the subject, but Afghanistan is where the discussion leads from 911. IOW, please stick to the subject and be factual, or you aren’t fighting ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![MarcusF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/67e7ee/32.png) [@MarcusF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarcusF)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1173 "2009-07-27T13:44:19Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Not going to comb through this entire thread, but just wanted to check… someone has pointed out to T2B that AQ was an official part of the Afghan government, right? I am not supporting **Try2B** - search the thread and you will find where I have tried to dispel his ignorance - but **FinnAgain** , where do you get this from? My reading on the situation pre-9/11 shows that AQ were welcome guests in southern Afganistan, they were not - according to any source I have seen - “an official part of the Afgan government”. If there is evidence of this I would be very interested. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1174 "2009-07-27T14:16:43Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > How many AQ guys from Sudan? [Five Sudanese Islamists were convicted for the killings of John Granville and his driver.](http://www.usaid.gov/press/frontlines/fl_jul09/p3_insights070907.html) [Al-Qaeda in the Land of the Two Niles (i.e.: Al-Qaeda in Sudan) reportedly took credit for their deaths.](http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/B547467.htm) Back in February, Osama’s #2 guy urged his Sudanese bretheren to continue their jihad. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1175 "2009-07-27T14:26:26Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > I do know that _both_ the Taliban and AQ were funded by the Saudis, which seems the relevant point. “Saudi money” is like “American money.” Rich individuals in both nations, (or in Britain, France, Geermany, Singalpore, Kuwait, UAE, or anywhere else), are always able to support nasty people (or good people), whether it is the IRA in Northern Ireland, United Fruit in Central America, or anywhere else. Your persistent use of the phrase “Saudi money” or other references to Saudis strongly implies that you see some sort of link between the Saudi government and al Qaida and the Taliban. Now, you are the one who gets to provide the references to back up that insinuation. (And I do not know where Finn got the notion that al Qaida was directly involved with the Taliban or Afghanistan government. I would await his references.) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1176 "2009-07-27T15:00:52Z")
> [@MarcusF](#): > > I am not supporting **Try2B** - search the thread and you will find where I have tried to dispel his ignorance - but **FinnAgain** , where do you get this from? I hope a quick cite will suffice but perhaps I can dig up something more thorough. It’s hard to get the proper hits now as most of the top google results are about recent AQ-Taliban stuff. Anyways, AQ was a part of the Taliban’s Ministry of Defense both [de facto](http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/nov/18/terrorism.afghanistan) > [@](#): > > The apparent al-Qaeda presence, particularly in a Taliban Defence Ministry building, suggested that bin Laden’s organisation and the radical Islamic government regime were closely linked. > […] > The papers, which include private correspondence between the leaderships in Kabul and Islamabad, were seen by The Observer in the chaotic hours following the flight of the Taliban from Kabul and after the sacking of the Pakistani Embassy, when files and papers were strewn over the street outside. They show that in the build-up to 11 September the Taliban brushed off messages from the US threatening to bomb them. They also reinforce the emerging evidence of how closely intertwined the Taliban was with al-Qaeda. and via official identification. > [@](#): > > Bin Ladin eventually enjoyed a strong financial position in Afghanistan, thanks to Saudi and other financiers associated with the Golden Chain. Through his relationship with Mullah Omar—and the monetary and other benefits that it brought the Taliban—Bin Ladin was able to circumvent restric-tions;Mullah Omar would stand by him even when other Taliban leaders raised objections. Bin Ladin appeared to have in Afghanistan a freedom of move-ment that he had lacked in Sudan.Al Qaeda members could travel freely within the country, enter and exit it without visas or any immigration procedures,pur-chase and import vehicles and weapons, and enjoy the use of official Afghan Ministry of Defense license plates.Al Qaeda also used the Afghan state-owned Ariana Airlines to courier money into the country. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1177 "2009-07-27T15:11:45Z")
D’oh, second link is borked. This should be the [working link](http://www.gpoaccess.gov/911/pdf/fullreport.pdf). ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [July 27, 2009, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1178 "2009-07-27T15:22:49Z")
It was also in the Wiki cite: > [@](#): > > Al-Qaeda enjoyed the Taliban’s protection and a measure of legitimacy as part of their Ministry of Defense, although only Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and the United Arab Emirates recognized the Taliban as the legitimate government of Afghanistan I even cited this passage earlier, though Try2B Comprehensive ignored it. [QUOTE=Try2B Comprehensive] My suggestion, XT, is to not change the subject. Don’t go on about what you’ve already posted without a link- the questions above haven’t been answered. Don’t say what’s easy to Google- either post a link or respond to someone else. Spare me the speculations of what percentage of former posters have what opinion. Yah, this thread is a big mess and not well-titled, and I’m obviously not a graduate-level expert on the subject, but Afghanistan is where the discussion leads from 911. IOW, please stick to the subject and be factual, or you aren’t fighting ignorance. [/QUOTE] Since you haven’t seemingly read ANY of the info provided to you thus far and continue to believe what you are going to believe I fail to see the motivation to provide you with more info that you can look up. The bases AQ had in Afghanistan? That’s easily found using Google, as I told you, and after you ignored or blew off the 4th or 5th cite I DID provide you I didn’t feel compelled to find that for you as well. Perhaps some other 'doper would enjoy providing you with data you can ignore in the future…me, I’m not seeing the motivation. > [@](#): > > How many AQ guys from Sudan? If the answer is zero, it demonstrates that AQ is a function of Saudi money more than anything else. Bin Laden’s role is as a financial focal point. [Google](http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Sudanese+in+Al+Qaeda&aq=f&oq=&aqi=) is your friend. Click on a few links, give it a whirl. The answer isn’t zero, so this doesn’t demonstrate anything. As for ‘Saudi money’, you keep throwing that around as if it’s meaningful. It isn’t. Rich Saudi’s supporting an organization like AQ is like when rich American’s supported various terrorist groups in Ireland. The key point, which you seem incapable of grasping, is that the GOVERNMENT (either Saudi or US) isn’t supporting the terrorist group…merely rich citizens. Since it’s what you are getting at, again, the reason we didn’t invade Saudi but did invade Afghanistan is because Al Qaeda was IN Afghanistan and had OFFICIAL sanction and support from the Taliban. They weren’t in Saudi, had no bases in Saudi, and did not have official sanction or support from the Saudi government. Why this is hard for you to grasp (8+ YEARS after these events originally unfolded) is beyond me. That you think this is all ‘fishy’ is beyond me. > [@](#): > > Map of the camps? So we can know the map of the actual enemy locations, pretty obvious. We’ve all seen them man! We all saw them in 2001 on TV for gods sake. Are you seriously disputing that AQ had bases in Afghanistan?? [Here](http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/afghanistan/maps.htm) are some maps (I can’t believe I broke down and looked this up for you)…knock yourself out. > [@](#): > > Description of the 1st war of military action? Mainly to show that it didn’t involve going after AQ, but conquering this territory instead. It’s in the Wiki cite I’ve shown you about a half dozen times. Try reading it. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1179 "2009-07-28T03:44:09Z")
Thanks to everybody who is giving a straight answer! I like that. I might as well get cracking on the entire 911 commission report, and I’ll give an informed reply to all soon. > [@tomndebb](#): > > “Saudi money” is like “American money.” Rich individuals in both nations, (or in Britain, France, Geermany, Singalpore, Kuwait, UAE, or anywhere else), are always able to support nasty people (or good people), whether it is the IRA in Northern Ireland, United Fruit in Central America, or anywhere else. > > Your persistent use of the phrase “Saudi money” or other references to Saudis strongly implies that you see some sort of link between the Saudi government and al Qaida and the Taliban. > Now, you are the one who gets to provide the references to back up that insinuation. Off the top of my head, in another thread I read Prince Turki al Faisal (sp?)- something like the head of the information ministry- was identified as one government-associated wealthy Saudi who gave money to AQ. I will try to come back with a good cite for you, I just don’t have time now, but wanted to acknowledge at least this much tonight. As for my insinuations about SA and AQ. Yeah, I think Saudi money is the real cove AQ has been harboring it’s boat in. Saudi _government_ money? If by that you mean the King, no, I’ve never seen it suggested that he supports funding AQ. I don’t personally think so either. Other government guys? One, off the top of my head. I agree a significant portion, maybe most of the Saudi money is probably private in origin. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2009, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041/1180 "2009-07-28T03:44:13Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > It was also in the Wiki cite: Well, to be fair, that particular bit didn’t seem to have a cite attached to it in the Wiki article. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041.md?page=58) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-me-your-9-11-conspiracy-theories-and-or-their-debunking/497041.md?page=60)