# Give us your defense of the theory that Jesus is God. Atheists welcome. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 2, 2003, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-us-your-defense-of-the-theory-that-jesus-is-god-atheists-welcome/211046 "2003-11-02T22:54:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-us-your-defense-of-the-theory-that-jesus-is-god-atheists-welcome/211046/41 "2003-11-03T20:05:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > \*\*I’m afraid anything I say will merely be a subset of **Buckner** ’s excellent post, but is it official doctrine that God actually _became_ Jesus? From the accounts in the Gospels, it would seem to me that God did not _leave_ heaven, but rather occupied both heaven and Earth simultaneously. When Jesus addresses God: “Why have you forsaken me?”, he isn’t talking to _himself_, is he? \*\* No; this is (according to Christian Doctrine) God the Son talking to God the Father - two different people, each of whom are fully God (but not two Gods) - back to the mystery of the Trinity again. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-us-your-defense-of-the-theory-that-jesus-is-god-atheists-welcome/211046/42 "2003-11-03T20:16:43Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Bob Cos_ > Why? Why couldn’t the defining attribute of God be the ability to love in an unqualified manner? Why couldn’t he retain this trait while voluntarily assuming a form that did not manifest all the traits of God (e.g., he could experience physical pain)? Two points: First, the defining attribute(s) of a god could be being a bearded guy who lives on Mount Olympus and hurls thunderbolts and seduces shepherd girls. There are lots of “gods” and many definitions of “God”. However, for a couple of millennia the defining attributes of the _Christian_ God have been pretty well laid down as including perfection of knowledge. Perfect knowledge, along with perfect holiness and perfect justice and so on, have been claimed to be essential to the definition of God by Christian theologians. Second, if an entity has perfect knowledge of all things, past, present, and future, then such knowledge is of such a different order from any form of limited knowledge that depriving that entity of its omniscience would necessarily make it something else. I have limited knowledge; if you deprive me of some of that limited knowledge, that doesn’t necessarily alter who I essentially am: you could erase from my mind the knowledge that Habbakuk is one of the books of the Old Testament, and I would still be me. But, if you turned me into a statue, or a pillar of salt, so that I had no awareness of any kind, I would cease to be me. The difference between perfect knowledge and limited knowledge is such that a being with limited knowledge is as different from an omniscient being as a statue is from a human. (Again, an omniscient being–with perfect knowledge of all things past, present, and future–would not even perceive the passage of time, or see changes taking place: everything would have happened/would be happening/will be happening in an eternal _now_.) ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-us-your-defense-of-the-theory-that-jesus-is-god-atheists-welcome/211046/43 "2003-11-03T21:07:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* > **Two points: First, the defining attribute(s) of a god could be being a bearded guy who lives on Mount Olympus and hurls thunderbolts and seduces shepherd girls. There are lots of “gods” and many definitions of “God”. However, for a couple of millennia the defining attributes of the _Christian_ God have been pretty well laid down as including perfection of knowledge. Perfect knowledge, along with perfect holiness and perfect justice and so on, have been claimed to be essential to the definition of God by Christian theologians.** For a couple of millenia Christian theologians have identified a God made man who, by choice, clearly did NOT manifest all the attributes of God. Jesus felt physical pain. He was “helpless” as an infant–e.g., he had to learn to walk, etc. If you want to cite Christian theologians as the basis for showing that Jesus was not God, surely you would acknowledge that these same theologians would NOT agree with your syllogism. Are they authorities on the topic or not? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-us-your-defense-of-the-theory-that-jesus-is-god-atheists-welcome/211046/44 "2003-11-03T21:52:10Z")
My point is that for a couple of millennia Christian theologians have made claims about God which are mutually contradictory. God is essentially perfect, and thus has perfect knowledge of all things past, present, and future. God truly became man, while remaining God. Christian theologians have managed to set up a number of logical paradoxes in their pronouncements about God; of course, they have tried to reason their way out of those assorted problems. With respect to the problems posed by the Incarnation, there has been quite a lot of making assertions as if that solved anything, and quite a lot of falling back on the notion of “Mystery”. Not surprisingly, the paradoxes of the Incarnation have also spawned a number of heresies as different groups of Christians have tried to cope with the logical problems inherent in the orthodox view. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-us-your-defense-of-the-theory-that-jesus-is-god-atheists-welcome/211046/45 "2003-11-03T22:01:44Z")
> [@](#): > > The human form doesn’t replace God, it’s an extension or manifestation of God. Yes, it’s a bit more plausible to suggest that Jesus is a part of God rather than the whole of God. How much information (or ‘Word’) needed to be downloaded from God’s brain to the Holodeck to run the Jesus program? Given the likely number of inhabited planets in the Universe, was “God made flesh” simultaneously in more than one place? Does Jesus have siblings? Perhaps there are planets where people worship the “Daughter of God” (or whatever alien gender equivilent). Then again, maybe Jesus is an itinerant messiah who spends the equivilent of a few decades on each planet before moving on to the next and repeating the process. ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-us-your-defense-of-the-theory-that-jesus-is-god-atheists-welcome/211046/46 "2003-11-03T22:21:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by sqweels \* > \*\*Yes, it’s a bit more plausible to suggest that Jesus is a part of God rather than the whole of God. How much information (or ‘Word’) needed to be downloaded from God’s brain to the Holodeck to run the Jesus program? > > Given the likely number of inhabited planets in the Universe, was “God made flesh” simultaneously in more than one place? Does Jesus have siblings? Perhaps there are planets where people worship the “Daughter of God” (or whatever alien gender equivilent). > > Then again, maybe Jesus is an itinerant messiah who spends the equivilent of a few decades on each planet before moving on to the next and repeating the process. \*\* I don’t believe in God, but as far as I understand it, the Bible states pretty clearly that God created the universe _for_ us. Genesis mentions the creation of other heavenly bodies, but makes no reference to life being put on any planet besides Earth. So if one accepts Christian doctrine at all, I see no reason for one to believe that there is life on other planets, or that God would have any interest in “saving” any living beings on other planets, even if they _did_ exist. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-us-your-defense-of-the-theory-that-jesus-is-god-atheists-welcome/211046/47 "2003-11-03T22:35:34Z")
Looks like **Alde** has abadoned his thread. I guess that means he admits defeat! ---
**Author:** ![blowero](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/41988e/32.png) [@blowero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blowero)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-us-your-defense-of-the-theory-that-jesus-is-god-atheists-welcome/211046/48 "2003-11-03T22:39:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > An interest linkety-link it is. Are you suggesting that this shows that there is no existence possible outside of our Universe’s context? Do you believe this counters an argument I am implying? I found this interesting and accurate from blowero:\*\*This rings true to me, and it allows that our Universe is simply the only existential construct we understand (but not necessarily the only one that is or was or will be). Thanks for the kind words. If I may be allowed to nitpick one thing: the words “was” and “will be” have no meaning in this context. We can’t rule out the existence of other realms, but we _can_ say that it’s meaningless to describe them as being _before_ or _after_ our realm, since “before” and “after” are temporal concepts. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-us-your-defense-of-the-theory-that-jesus-is-god-atheists-welcome/211046/49 "2003-11-03T23:38:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John Mace \* > \*\*Looks like **Alde** has abadoned his thread. I guess that means he admits defeat! \*\* You are all to eager to come to baseless conclusions. You easily overlook the inevitable fact that not everyone posting on this website is in the same the same timezone. I do not live in the ties zone you obviously live. It is in fact where I am now over midnight right now. So I’ll come back on this topic maybe tomorrow evening. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2003, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-us-your-defense-of-the-theory-that-jesus-is-god-atheists-welcome/211046/50 "2003-11-03T23:43:24Z")
> [@](#): > > Aldebaran wrote: > I’ll come back on this topic maybe tomorrow evening. I look forward to your answer to my question. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-us-your-defense-of-the-theory-that-jesus-is-god-atheists-welcome/211046/51 "2003-11-04T00:14:07Z")
To the poster who came up with some quote of one of my formers posts: Yes I did comparitive study Christianity/Islam and yes, I do understand what is meant with the Trinity and yes, I do know how Christianity over time developped and yes, I do know what Christology meant - and still means - and I didn’t bring that in the discussion yet. (MEBuckner touched the issue already though) And by the way, I’m familiar with Christianity as teached and practiced by Catholics since the day I was born. That doesn’t mean that this familiarity and my later studies changed my views on it, especially the doctrine “Jesus = God”, does it? Or do you stop questioning everything you ever studied on because since you studied it it needs to be the absolute truth for you? Now don’t let me laugh. **MEBuckner** Thank you for your contributions, expressing some of the thoughts I have about this issue… And thus doing the job for me here by answering some of the arguments and questions. I wouldn’t be able to express them so clearly since I always have to search for words, let be that I can form good sentences with them. \*\*To all \*\* Time to add an other point to the discussion (I said in my OP “more to come”). God is One This is in direct opposition with the idea that “The Word” was some sort of distinct part (I hope I use the right words here to bring across what I mean by this) of the Divine since the beginning of God. And of course with the whole idea of the Trinity itself. And remember by this also that God has no beginning since God is uncreated. By the way, I formed an other opinion on the meaning of this “The Word”. But that is an other discussion. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-us-your-defense-of-the-theory-that-jesus-is-god-atheists-welcome/211046/52 "2003-11-04T00:24:48Z")
There you go limiting God’s capabilities again by stating “God is One” do you think he can’t appear in two places at the same time just because us humans can’t? In fact omnipresent means he is all places at all times. You might say well God may be in two places at the same time, but God is One because it is the same God. Well that is what the Xians are telling you when they say God is Jesus as well as God the Father (aka Allah). ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-us-your-defense-of-the-theory-that-jesus-is-god-atheists-welcome/211046/53 "2003-11-04T01:17:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blowero \* > \*\*Thanks for the kind words. If I may be allowed to nitpick one thing: the words “was” and “will be” have no meaning in this context. We can’t rule out the existence of other realms, but we _can_ say that it’s meaningless to describe them as being _before_ or _after_ our realm, since “before” and “after” are temporal concepts. \*\* You’re welcome. And, yes, you’re right. It’s hard to think outside of certain semantical conventions, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-us-your-defense-of-the-theory-that-jesus-is-god-atheists-welcome/211046/54 "2003-11-04T01:19:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*To all \*\* > > Time to add an other point to the discussion (I said in my OP “more to come”). > > God is One > > This is in direct opposition with the idea that “The Word” was some sort of distinct part (I hope I use the right words here to bring across what I mean by this) of the Divine since the beginning of God. And of course with the whole idea of the Trinity itself.\*\* Well, perhaps, but let’s be clear now; you’re not debating anymore but witnessing. ‘God is One’ is a key tenet of Islam; Islam doesn’t recognise the Christian Trinity - surprise surprise! What exactly are you trying to do here **Aldebaran**? Prove that Islam and Christianity are not completely compatible? Something else? ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-us-your-defense-of-the-theory-that-jesus-is-god-atheists-welcome/211046/55 "2003-11-04T15:30:12Z")
Blowero: > [@](#): > > I don’t believe in God, but as far as I understand it, the Bible states pretty clearly that God created the universe for us. Genesis mentions the creation of other heavenly bodies, but makes no reference to life being put on any planet besides Earth. So if one accepts Christian doctrine at all, I see no reason for one to believe that there is life on other planets But whoever wrote Genesis didn’t know that the stars are suns and that there are untold billions of them, many having worlds circling them. How can God not be concerened with what goes on in these places? My point is that it is extremely short-sighted to define God in terms of man. It’s like that parable of the fleas gathered around a hair and calling it a dog. ---
**Author:** ![Sergio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Sergio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sergio)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-us-your-defense-of-the-theory-that-jesus-is-god-atheists-welcome/211046/56 "2003-11-04T18:15:22Z")
This discussion is pointless. Of course the divinity of Jesus can not be proved or unproved. I ask Aldebaran: **Give me your defense to the theory that Mohamed was the last of the great prophets.** **BTW** even the existance of Jesus can’t be proved! Aside from the scriptures there are no mentions of Jesus or of the portents supposed to happen during his life. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-us-your-defense-of-the-theory-that-jesus-is-god-atheists-welcome/211046/57 "2003-11-04T19:01:34Z")
**Aldebaran** : Still waiting for you to answer my question. Or are you unable to do so? ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-us-your-defense-of-the-theory-that-jesus-is-god-atheists-welcome/211046/58 "2003-11-04T19:45:08Z")
JonM Are you always that impatient? I think I said: I’m in an other timezone then you are. I think I said yesterday **it is over midnight where I am.** And now we have here: 20.50 AM. I just came in after a 2 hours flight (and half an hour drive from the airport). The second one this day since I first had to go where I came back from now, no? I shall try to answer the posts made on this topic later this evening. I don’t spend my life reading this website you know. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![spogga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/3ab097/32.png) [@spogga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spogga)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-us-your-defense-of-the-theory-that-jesus-is-god-atheists-welcome/211046/59 "2003-11-04T20:32:10Z")
\*\* alde \*\* By the unshaven chin of allah I have just realised that whatever you say is right…you are never wrong, the scales are fallen from my eyes, I once was blind etc etc. Many thanks esteemed MUS’er, how could I ever have failed to recognise the pearls of wisdom which flowed from your keyboard, the sheer brilliance of your many arguments,the magnificence of your postings leaves me speechless with admiration. And all of this despite suffering from acute dyslexia. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-us-your-defense-of-the-theory-that-jesus-is-god-atheists-welcome/211046/60 "2003-11-04T21:11:25Z")
> [@](#): > > I think I said: I’m in an other timezone then you are. > I think I said yesterday **it is over midnight where I am.** > > And now we have here: 20.50 AM.\*\* You thnk that’s bad; it’s February here already! Why on earth people keep forcing me to start threads, I shall never understand. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-us-your-defense-of-the-theory-that-jesus-is-god-atheists-welcome/211046.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/give-us-your-defense-of-the-theory-that-jesus-is-god-atheists-welcome/211046.md?page=4)