# Giving one's libertarian friends a hard time **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [March 8, 2023, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giving-ones-libertarian-friends-a-hard-time/980876 "2023-03-08T14:11:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2023, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giving-ones-libertarian-friends-a-hard-time/980876/1 "2023-03-08T14:11:42Z")
So if you have a paranoid libertarian friend that refuses to wear a mask when entering a hospital or other public place that has a mask policy, the best thing to do is to _agree with them_…oh absolutely don’t wear a mask when you go in. Wearing one would mess with the facial recognition software big time. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2023, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giving-ones-libertarian-friends-a-hard-time/980876/2 "2023-03-08T14:18:37Z")
Not wearing a mask is what they want you to do. They want your kind to die from the disease they unleashed. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2023, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giving-ones-libertarian-friends-a-hard-time/980876/3 "2023-03-08T14:22:36Z")
Yes, but preying upon their innate paranoia may create an internal conflict: on the one hand, no one tells ME what I have to wear, but on the other hand, wearing a mask is nearly as effective as wearing tinfoil on one’s head in keeping THEM from identifying you and your thought crimes. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2023, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giving-ones-libertarian-friends-a-hard-time/980876/4 "2023-03-08T14:24:25Z")
I misread the title as “giving one’s _librarian_ friends a hard time” and was going to talk about that brand new Tom Clancy novel I checked out thirty years ago and never returned…sorry! Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2023, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giving-ones-libertarian-friends-a-hard-time/980876/5 "2023-03-08T14:31:09Z")
This post has been reported…to the American Library Association. I suspect not even SOAT can stand up to their power, especially as they are mobilizing in the face of new waves of book banning and other attempts at censorship. That is, they are spoiling for a fight. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2023, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giving-ones-libertarian-friends-a-hard-time/980876/6 "2023-03-08T14:34:22Z")
I mean, it was _Debt of Honor_, so I was really doing some tiny amount of good by keeping one copy out of circulation… Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2023, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giving-ones-libertarian-friends-a-hard-time/980876/7 "2023-03-08T14:35:23Z")
I will be interested to see how the ALA responds to this call for mercy, which I personally support–it is a compelling case, imho ---
**Author:** ![John\_DiFool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_difool/32/19543_2.png) [@John\_DiFool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_DiFool)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2023, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giving-ones-libertarian-friends-a-hard-time/980876/8 "2023-03-08T14:58:51Z")
Hmm. _Are_ there any actual libertarians out there, who have publicly decried things like abortion bans or voting restrictions, since, you know, they are against everything that a True Libertarian would putatively believe in? Or is it a case of people who keep on using that word, when it is clear it does not mean what they think it means? ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2023, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giving-ones-libertarian-friends-a-hard-time/980876/9 "2023-03-08T15:31:17Z")
Would a real libertarian have friends at all? Acquaintances, perhaps, slaves and servants, no doubt, maybe even employees, as badly treated as they are paid, but _friends_? I don’t see that. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2023, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giving-ones-libertarian-friends-a-hard-time/980876/10 "2023-03-08T15:32:25Z")
What if the friendship was of a purely transactional nature? ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2023, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giving-ones-libertarian-friends-a-hard-time/980876/11 "2023-03-08T15:35:44Z")
OK, maybe a libertarian would call this friendship, I don’t know. Ask the libertarian if you know one. I would not call a purely transactional relation “friendship”. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2023, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giving-ones-libertarian-friends-a-hard-time/980876/12 "2023-03-08T15:39:39Z")
But would the libertarian’s friends be Scotsmen (or would the libertarian)? ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2023, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giving-ones-libertarian-friends-a-hard-time/980876/13 "2023-03-08T16:14:13Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > So if you have a paranoid libertarian friend that refuses to wear a mask when entering a hospital or other public place that has a mask policy, During the period when I required a mask to enter my business, I had a handful of people refuse. Those people were told to leave my property. A few of them told me I’d be hearing from their lawyer. So far all I hear are crickets. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2023, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giving-ones-libertarian-friends-a-hard-time/980876/14 "2023-03-08T16:19:33Z")
> [@Kropotkin](#): > > This post has been reported…to the American Library Association. I suspect not even SOAT can stand up to their power, especially as they are mobilizing in the face of new waves of book banning and other attempts at censorship. That is, they are spoiling for a fight. Apologies for continuing the hijack, but this is very interesting news. Shortly after the PATRIOT Act was passed (so, more than 20 years ago already? oookay, universe) I somewhat accidentally attended a party at an ALA convention (long story), and… Wait, I [already told you guys this story](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/tips-did-the-good-guys-win/123305/12) (August 2002, geez): > [@Kimstu](#): > > […] at the very least, there are some things in the Act that the ALA views with definite concern. I first learned about this while hanging out with some attendees of a librarians’ conference that shared a building with a conference I was attending, a couple of weeks ago (those librarians are much wilder partiers than you might suspect! :)), but it is more, er, soberly confirmed by the [ALA report](http://www.ala.org/alaorg/oif/usapatriotlibrary.html) “The PATRIOT Act in the Library”: > > > [@](#): > > > > The Patriot Act amended over 15 federal statutes, including the laws governing criminal procedure, computer fraud and abuse, foreign intelligence, wiretapping, immigration, and the laws governing the privacy of student records. These amendments expanded the authority of the Federal Bureau of Investigation and law enforcement to gain access to business records, medical records, educational records and library records, including stored electronic data and communications. It also expanded the laws governing wiretaps and “trap and trace” phone devices to Internet and electronic communications. These enhanced surveillance procedures pose the greatest challenge to privacy and confidentiality in the library. > > And it goes on to spell out exactly which amendments make which differences in constraints on library procedures. What I gather the librarians are most concerned about is that under the new law, certain search warrants are automatically accompanied by a “gag order”: they may not disclose that a warrant has been served or that records have been produced in response to it. Many federal document depository librarians are also apparently pretty pissed about the FBI confiscating thousands of documents, deemed potentially sensitive, that their readers need. That ALA link is broken two decades later, but there are lots of resources on the site that discuss ALA resistance to censorship and invasion of privacy. When librarians are spoiling for a fight, watch out. (Sorry, that really is a hijack of the intended purpose of the thread, ignore me! But I was interested…) ---
**Author:** ![xtenkfarpl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/c2a13f/32.png) [@xtenkfarpl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xtenkfarpl)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2023, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giving-ones-libertarian-friends-a-hard-time/980876/15 "2023-03-08T16:24:04Z")
I’m not really sure what ‘Libertarian’ means nowadays. Is it even a useful term any more? There seem to be more flavors of ‘Libertarians’ than you can shake a stick at. ---
**Author:** ![Pardel-Lux](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pardel-lux/32/20182_2.png) [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2023, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giving-ones-libertarian-friends-a-hard-time/980876/16 "2023-03-08T16:30:38Z")
Let me please show you why I believe the obligatory “No true Scotman”-falacy refutal does not apply in this case. Would you accept that the Scotsman argument does not apply to behaviour that can be chosen, like, for instance, what one eats? Would you then accept that the statement “no true vegan would eat meat” is correct? Now substitute “vegan” with “libertarian”, “eat meat” with “have friends” and tell me in a way even I can understand why the statement changes from true to false. Because I believe it does not. Of course, if you believe that the political convictions a person has are indelebly stamped upon them at birth, like Scotishness, and that those can never change neither by education, experience, coercion or conviction, come hell or high water, then your objection could be true. But I don’t think that this is the way people are wired. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2023, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giving-ones-libertarian-friends-a-hard-time/980876/17 "2023-03-08T18:36:45Z")
> [@xtenkfarpl](#): > > There seem to be more flavors of ‘Libertarians’ than you can shake a stick at. Don’t shake a stick at a strawberry-anarcho-capitalist. They take the whole “An armed society is a polite society,” mantra very literally, and they really like dual-wielding [compact AR ‘pistols’](https://youtu.be/apd6NXWgBZk) that you don’t realize they are concealing under the large black overcoats they often affect. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2023, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giving-ones-libertarian-friends-a-hard-time/980876/18 "2023-03-08T19:04:59Z")
> [@Cardigan](#): > > Yes, but preying upon their innate paranoia may create an internal conflict: on the one hand, no one tells ME what I have to wear, but on the other hand, wearing a mask is nearly as effective as wearing tinfoil on one’s head in keeping THEM from identifying you and your thought crimes. You’re assuming libertarians are inherently paranoid, but that’s not really part of their doctrine; they just favor liberty. What you’re thinking of are the conspiracy theorists who believe that COVID isn’t real and mask mandates are/were implemented for no reason other than to get the populace used to being compliant/subservient. ---
**Author:** ![Cardigan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardigan/32/187_2.png) [@Cardigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardigan)\ **Post date:** [March 8, 2023, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giving-ones-libertarian-friends-a-hard-time/980876/19 "2023-03-08T20:58:54Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > You’re assuming libertarians are inherently paranoid, but that’s not really part of their doctrine; they just favor liberty. What you’re thinking of are the conspiracy theorists who believe that COVID isn’t real and mask mandates are/were implemented for no reason other than to get the populace used to being compliant/subservient. Why then does it seem (anecdotally to me at any rate) that a high percentage of self-described libertarians subscribe to the behavior and beliefs you described? Coincidence? Confirmation bias? ---
**Author:** ![Lsura](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Lsura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lsura)\ **Post date:** [March 9, 2023, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giving-ones-libertarian-friends-a-hard-time/980876/20 "2023-03-09T14:16:34Z")
> [@Kropotkin](#): > > I will be interested to see how the ALA responds to this call for mercy, which I personally support–it is a compelling case, imho The academic library side of ALA has a conference next week. We might get to this topic. The full ALA conference isn’t until late June, so there’s still time for it to be on that agenda. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/giving-ones-libertarian-friends-a-hard-time/980876.md?page=2)