Giving up Liberty For Security

jarbabyj, let me see if I can rephrase your concerns in a way that may shed more light on what you are really asking and what you really want.

In your posts (and those of others) I keep hearing I’m scared and I want to be safe. Not I want to feel safe but rather I want to be safe. And that’s cool - I think everyone would like to be safe, or at least be as safe as possible.

Where we fail to communicate is when it comes time to discuss how to become safer.

My biggest concern since 9/11 has not been a terrorist attack (although I have some fear of them, what with working in a Chicago skyscraper, riding a commuter train, and so forth) but rather false security. That is, I am adamantly opposed to measures that seem to increase security but do not in fact do so. I am opposed to making people merely FEEL better about security without actually making them safer.

Thus, if I feel there is some evidence that searches of airline passengers actually increases safety then I find them acceptable, perhaps even laudable. If, however, they do not truly increase security, if they only make you feel better, then I must adamantly oppose them as being both a waste of resources and a pernicious deception. I will never enjoy these security procedures but I can be an advocate for them if the benefit outweighs the negative side effects.

That is MY test of what is and isn’t acceptable. (Well, one of the tests…)

Which is why I am opposed to unlimited searches by the government - it’s too easy to turn them into a fishing expedition. The gentleman from Oregon? He’s innocent. Do you understand that? He was arrested, held incommunicado, his home searched, his reputation besmirched world wide - and he is innocent of all charges. Did searching his house without a warrant make us safer? Did holding him incommunicado make us safer? Did smearing his name in the press make us safer? Or should the government have been forced to build a solid case prior to abducting a citizen of the United States? If they had had to build a real case instead of being able to charge in on the slightest of pretextes, perhaps they would have discovered he wasn’t involved in the Madrid bombing without expending so many resources, creating a media circus, and spent some of that time, money and effort on finding the REAL “bad guys” out there.

Tracking every citizen? Is this really a good idea? The sheer amount of data that would be generated every day is staggering - who could possibly sort through all that? Inevitably, some sort of profile would need to be used, and those who did not fit the profile would not be discovered until too late - so what would all that time and money and effort have accomplished?

Here’s another example - shortly after 9/11 there were numerous proposals to perform an in-depth background check on each and every holder of a pilot license in the US - or even everyone who had ever taken so much as a single flight lesson. I don’t mean a quickie cheap test - we’re talking about the sort with a price tag in four digits. To do so, however, would have been a waste. Why? Because the vast majority of pilots are law-abiding citizens. You’d spend a LOT of money to net a very, very few fish, if any. Using the super-background check on the 700,000+ pilots in the US would cost over $1 billion. We just can’t afford to take that sort of brute-force approach - we don’t have the money. No one does.

Here’s the rub - most, if not all, of the 9/11 hijackers could have easily based just such a background check. In other words, it wouldn’t have caught the Bad Guys.

Other areas with this applies are numerous - MOST people who buy amonium nitrate fertilzier and diesel fuel have legitimate, lawful uses for those items (farmers, for instance, growing the food you eat). MOST people with hazmat trucker licenses are using them to make an honest living, not blow things up. MOST people who buy Sudafed do so to treat their sinus condition, not to make methamphetamine.

What you are really looking for is effective searches. That is - you need a system that concentrates your efforts on where the Bad Guys actually are to be found and doesn’t waste resources on the innocent. You want systems that will actually prevent hijackings, not just look good. A good, solid cockpit door, for instance, may be much more effective than a half dozen air marshalls in passenger seating, for instance. Know something else? Over the long run the fortified doors are cheaper, too. You don’t have to expend huge amounts of cash to get real security or improved safety - on the flip side, spending lots of money doesn’t guarantee you’re getting anything other than an illusion of safety.

So, jarbabyj, here’s what YOU can do to prevent terrorism: keep your eyes open, maintain your critical thinking skills, and question every security procedure. Here’s why:

Keep your eyes open - if everyone just freakin’ paid attention it would be a lot harder for the Bad Guys to cause damage. Remember the bombing at the Atlanta Olympic games? A security guard spotted something suspicious and had started moving people away from the area when the bomb went off - if he hadn’t done that, the death/injury toll would have been higher. And this pays off not just in terrorism - just before the new terminal at Charles DeGaulle airport in Paris fell in someone had noticed cracking sounds and falling debris - an evacuation was already in progress and some people escaped because of that evacuation who otherwise might have come to grief. KEEP YOUR EYES OPEN. If you notice something - tell someone.

Critical thinking skills - you need to think, especially if something goes wrong. A bunch o’ folks in the WTC meekly went back to their offices because the loudspeakers said to do so - but the ones who said “Uh-uh - something is wrong here” and left are the ones who survived. Yes, 99 times out of 100 you should listen to authority - but that 100th time you should not. Keep your fact checker running. Listen to your suspicions and fears - not to let them dominate you, but to hear when they are telling you to run or to hide or to take other action.

Question everything - yes, really. Is this procedure effective? If it was effective yesterday, is it still effective today? Is there a better way, a more efficient way, to do this thing?

Another example from the World of Aviation As I Know It - there are serious proposals to require every airport with scheduled passenger service to have the exact same security systems. Initially, that sounds pretty good, hey? Right? Wrong. Here’s why:

Let’s take an example - O’Hare International, for instance. THOUSANDS, nay TENS OF THOUSANDS of people a day walk through there. Hell, it’s probably HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS on occassion. The place is HUGE. HUGE!. You need very efficient, very fast, very accurate means of screening all those thousands and thousands of people, all the millions who pass through there in a year. Yes, it makes sense to invest in automated baggage x-ray, a veritable army of searchers, sniffer dogs… LOTS of money, but the systems do make the searching more efficient. Could you imagine searching every piece of luggage by hand? {{{shudder}}}

Let’s take another example - Gary International Airport. It has, at most, one scheduled airline flight PER DAY. Most days - it has NONE. Zippo. The rest of the traffic is things like cargo and charter and folks like me :slight_smile: Spending 10 million dollars on a baggage screening machine for that airport is stupid - it would sit idle 90% of the time. It’s not cost-effective. There are few enough passengers passing through that what makes sense is a simple metal detector and a dozen baggage screeners - employed there ONLY when there is a scheduled flight - and search every bag by hand. Why? Because size matters. Scale of operation matters. The manpower required for the few hours per year needed for a hand-search is far, far less than the cost of even ONE of the big automated machines. And the money you save by accomodating the scale of operation could be better spent on things like maintaining runways, lighting systems, bad weather approach systems, the on-site weather station, and so forth - items that affect the safety of EVERY flight. So your safety overall improves, and not just in the narrow area of terrorism prevention.

I do NOT oppose huge application of automation to O’Hare’s security - I do oppose it at Gary because at Gary it’s a very poor use of resources. I want effective security, not showy security.

jar, as mentioned before, some of the situations you pose at the beginning are inconveniences rather than surrenders of liberty. And as many others have indicated, you are perfectly free to surrender your liberty, as long as you do not expect us to surrender ours.

“I’ve got nothing to hide, I’ve got nothing to fear” is just fine, but it is a rare person that has absolutely NOTHING in his/her life that could be held against them, and it has been an implicit part of the Social Contract for a long time that unless you do something to attract attention to yourself, you’ll be let alone as long as you’re hurting nobody.

You know, the other thing about this point of view is that it is exactly bass-ackwards. It is the guilty that have nothing to fear, because the worst that can happen to them is what they deserve anyway. But the innocent? They have much more to fear, for what could be worse than to be unjustly accused and imprisoned for something you did not do?

Here’s one thing that creeped me out.

I went into the hospital for a week last month, and this nurse I had never met walks up and greets me with a Wiccan greeting. Now, I’m not Wiccan, but pagans tend to band together - it is like a Baptist and a Lutheran meeting in the middle of Iraq - and I’m obviously not shy about it, but this is someone I never met, and I wasn’t wearing any jewelry or anything to denote my religion. Offline, most pagans tend to be a little secretive. After taking a moment to recover, I asked her where she had found out. She said, “it is on your paperwork”… now, I certainly never wrote it down or told anyone about it. I would prefer that the government didn’t know, or my insurance carrier, or whoever. But yo usee how easy it is to get information about people? It is scary what “they” know, and who knows how “they” use it.

I agree whole-heartedly with every word of this paragraph.

I drive every day 8.8 miles to work, then 8.8 miles home with idiots, maniacs, and just plain thoughtless people. I am fearful of these people. If I allowed this fear to do so, it could paralyze me to the point where I couldn’t even leave my apartment in the morning. Would I be safer if the speed limit was lowered from 45/55 mph to 20. Yes, of course. Would I be safe? Absolutely not. The proper reaction is to perform the actions that ensure my safety as best I can, and to accept tradeoffs.

jarbabyj, your tradeoff is either to accept the risk of living in a city which is most likely a high priority target of terrorism (as it would have been a high priority target should we have had a nuclear war with the U.S.S.R.), or to move somewhere that isn’t. Robert Heinlein wrote some fascinating essays during the Cold War, of which a standard subtext was: if you are afraid of being nuked, leave the places that will certainly be nuked.

The American psyche in general seems to require the removal of all risk, and all danger from life. As Jurph has iterated and reiterated, that ain’t never gonna happen. I do sympathize with your fear; your fear does not require me to allow my government to seize my liberty to assuage it. As the great American poet Eminem once said, “Am I afraid of death? Hell, yes, I’m afraid of death.” But it’s going to happen someday, sometime, whether on Parker Road at 6:45 in the morning or of a heart attack after talking to that client in Texas one too many times or in a nursing home cursed by the aide for fucking up his day or in a bed in my home surrounded by generations of loving descendants.

I’m sorry, but I would rather die for my liberty than give up my liberty to allow you to feel safer.

I’ll tell you right now – I’ve got things to hide. Not illegal things…necessarily. Just… secret things. If Cheney gets to hide whether oil company executives got to dictate public energy policy, I can hide what’s up in my closet, on the left, in back. “Why should somebody who’s not guilty have anything to hide?” Because it’s fun. Life is risky.

I think the foreign policy actions of the current administration have made future acts of terrorism within the U.S. more likely than they were three years ago, but I’m not gonna let fear rule my life. Terrorism, schmerrorism.

It worked well enough in Brazil. :wink:

Hear, hear. It’s an awfully boring person who has nothing at all to hide.

You certainly do trust easily. Power corrupts, and I’ve met a lot of people corrupted by power. Police that will trash your stuff just for fun. “Counselors” who will falsify your records cause they feel like it. Doctors that will do things to you “for your own good.”
Trust too easily and you WILL get fucked. That’s a guarantee.
Especially be wary of:
[ul]
[li]Those who ask you, “Trust us.”[/li][li]People who have power over you, including medical personnel, mental health professionals, lawyers, and everyone in government.[/li][li]Your parents (gee, I guess that goes without saying) : rolleyes :[/li][/ul]
This is not to say they are untrustworthy, or that you should never trust them, but if you value your freedom, pay attention.

…V

Yea, and lets make a bunch of national guard reservists in charge of guarding prisoners. It’s not like they’re going to pile them into naked pyramids and rape them with flashlights. O_o

Sad thing is, I’m 95% sure that someone at the Pentagon actually said that.

While I’d hate to cry slippery slope… you give them an inch, they take a mile. Government agencies and prosecuters make CAREERS out of bending the rules to insane degrees already… using decades old decisions to justify an unrelated case… I’d hate to see them start using the PA in the future. It is too powerful a weapon.

“If you ignore your rights, they’ll go away.”

Probability-wise, aren’t we still far more likely to be killed by such “old” things such as car accidents?

Why is there no discussion of giving up freedoms to prevent car accident deaths? Shouldn’t the gov’t prevent people from driving, for their own protection? Shouldn’t we all be willing to give up our “right” to drive, in the face of this threat that kills far more Americans than terrorism ever will?

Surely if terrorism, which so far has killed many fewer Americans than cars, is a big enough threat to curtial our freedoms, then we MUST ban private ownership of cars.

The question isn’t how many dead people are killed(by car accidents or by terrorists)–it’s how many dead people does American society accept as normal and okay.

Imagine approx 1000 dead bodies (passengers on planes):
Two planes crashing into a mountain on a foggy night does not paralyze society. Two planes crashing into an office tower on a sunny morning does.

The purpose of government is to keep society functioning–not paralyzed.So we need laws to catch terrorists before they act.

Put quite simply, without the rhetoric and philosophizin that I had in my first post (which the hamster ate, Og Vorb him…) - Since 11 September 2001, many of our new security measures have been demonstrably defeated. Judging from the debates happening here on this board, our intelligence gathering and interpreting has not improved in any meaningful way. In short - I personally don’t feel any safer, and in fact I feel that I’m less safe than I was on 10 September 2001.

We’re breeding (indeed, we’ve bred) a culture of mistrust. But in my opinion, it’s the guy with the power and the gun that you can trust the least. I trust a stranger in the airport more than I trust the security guy. Why? Because they’re both just people, individual human beings with their own secrets and personal motives. The only difference is that the guy with the badge and the gun has Power - the Power of the United States Government. And we all know the saying about power.

As I see it, that’s scary stuff. I’m far, far more fearful of being harassed, accused, and imprisoned by these guys than I am of terrorists plots. I believe the chances I’ll ever encounter a terrorist in my life are pretty slim. The chances that I’ll encounter a pissed off cop or security guard on a Power trip are far greater. And who will be looking out for me then?

Those who would choose security over liberty are doing so under a short-sighted belief that the person to whom you are entrusting your security will act in the best interests of everyone. Unfortunately, as has been demonstrated time and again throughout history, people just don’t work this way. I am much more reluctant to hand out Power than I am to ride on a plane with some one carrying an unsearched handbag, or visit a national monument where people may enter without walking through a metal detector, or allow middle-aged ladies to take pictures of their grandchildren inside a Federal Building.

Thomas Paine said “Government, even its best state, is but a necessary evil” and “That government is best which governs least.” I tend to agree with him. We are all safest when the difference between those with Power and those without is as small as possible, even if that means a few handbags don’t get searched at the airport.

I think this is the key here. I would rather die in a terrorist attack than know that the government has the right to do whatever they want to me, and I have no recourse. For me, the worse feeling in the world is hopelessness.

Yes, actually, they would and have.

What if you and I were neighbors, and I decided you’d done something I didn’t like (let’s say you wore stripes with plaids). I’m a malicious, hateful person who wants revenge. Under your scenario, the government has the right to do whatever they want to stop terrorists. So what can I do to really get back at you? How about planting a few seeds of suspicion that you’re a terrorist. Maybe a bag or two of fertilizer and a gallon of diesel and a phone call to the right people. Now all of a sudden, you’re a person of interest. They search your home, find some possibly suspicious items, and arrest you. The media hears and latches onto a story: Possible Terrorist Plot Foiled in [your home town/state]. Your name gets released and now the world is aware that you’re a possible terrorist. Because you’re a possible terrorist, that means no lawyers or charges.

My scenario may sound a bit simplistic, and I have no doubt that it would actually require a bit more work than that, but truly, it’s not that hard to come up with
a way to pull it off.

Another, tangentially-related point:

If someone *really *wants to do something, they will find a way, and no one can stop them. As long as people remain human, true security is an illusion.

Want to hijack a plane and fly it into a building? It can still be done. Ah, but the air marshalls are on board, you say. So find an air marshall and corrupt him/her. There’s one out there, I guarantee it. Sure, their identities are secret, but it’s not as if no one knows who they are. Or find a plane without an air marshall. It’s still not impossible to slip a weapon past airport security, as people have proven time and again. Or corrupt a pilot/co-pilot to do the deed. But the plane would be shot down, you say. So pick a location that’s likely to not get a response until it’s too late. But the government keeps tabs on possible terrorists. Find someone the government doesn’t know about or have any suspicion of.

Anyway, my point is, as others have pointed out, you can’t be safe, so why give up those things you should value in order to pretend you are?