Sorry Biffer. Time to inject a bit of fact into this discussion.
I own the Gladiator DVD, and I just rewatched the documentary you’re referring to. Perhaps you should have done this as well before making the accusations.
It’s an hour-long documentary on the history of the gladitorial games, with interviews from historians, shots of gladitorial artifacts, and of course, much footage from the film itself. The section dealing with the correllation between the gladitorial games and modern sports is a very, very, very minor part of the documentary, lasting exactly one sentence of narration long.
The extent of the footage of the Hillsborough tragedy, “mocking the death of 96 innocent people”? ONE STILL PHOTOGRAPH, onscreen for approximately ONE SECOND. That’s it. This one still is intercut with other stills of American football and boxing. Hardly what you make it out to be.
The Hillsborough tragedy was inarguably a terrible incident, and one that clearly has deep personal meaning to you, Biffer. But accusing the makers of this documentary of cashing in on the tragedy is a pretty serious accusation, and one you really should have verified before making.
No argument with your second point, but I think it would be pretty obvious to someone at the back of the crown that if the only way they could get the crowd moving was by relentlessly moving forward, there might be a bottleneck.
Look; we’re going around in circles here. We agree that the police and the organizers did not do their jobs. We disagree about any ultimate culpability on the part of some of the fans. There is nothing I am going to say that will convert you to my way of thinking and nothing you say that will convert me. Let’s let it die.
These are all things that the police failed to do. Failing to do stuff doesn’t kill people. The issue of whether the police were responsible is separate from the issue of whether they caused it.
I am offended by your referring to murderers as “innocent victims”.
Kabbes
Bullshit. If seeing a game is more important to you that the safety of your fellow fans, you are a hooligan. Pushing someone is violence, in fact it’s assualt and battery. Saying “I’m not responsible because I didn’t know that the end was blocked off” is like saying “I’m not responsible because I didn’t know the gun was loaded”. If you push someone, and someone dies because of that action, you are responsible for the death.
You guys are talking about people as if they are animals. People have free will, no matter how many other people are around them. This idea that people can get away with anything as long as lots of other people are doing the same thing sickens me. This is the logic that allowed the Holocaust to happen. Did individual members have the power to influence events? Yes, they could have stopped pushing. Would other people have still pushed? Yes. But you aren’t any less guilty just because other people are doing the same thing.
There are some Americans here getting into some VERY deep waters that they know nothing about.
Hillsborough was a national tragedy. We don’t have many tragedies on those scales here. It begat very very very deep investigation and serious soul-searching. For a start the whole nature of football in England was changed irrevocably. Government bodies were established. And an official impartial report was commissioned. That report was the Taylor Report. It took several YEARS to come to its conclusions.
And what were those conclusions? Basically that the police were to blame.
But you arrogant fucks can of course discard that because with your next-to-zero knowledge of what occurred you know EXACTLY what happened when and where the blame rests :rolleyes:
You know nothing about the culture inherent in the game that lead to the tragedy. You know nothing about the events that unfolded. You know nothing about the police incompetence on the day. But you feel able to sit in judgement, make snide remarks and make ridiculous analogies that can NEVER fit with the actual events. Well congratulations. You just offended a nation.
There are some Americans here getting into some VERY deep waters that they know nothing about.
Hillsborough was a national tragedy. We don’t have many tragedies on those scales here. It begat very very very deep investigation and serious soul-searching. For a start the whole nature of football in England was changed irrevocably. Government bodies were established. And an official impartial report was commissioned. That report was the Taylor Report. It took several YEARS to come to its conclusions.
And what were those conclusions? Basically that the police were to blame.
But you arrogant fucks can of course discard that because with your next-to-zero knowledge of what occurred you know EXACTLY what happened when and where the blame rests :rolleyes:
You know nothing about the culture inherent in the game that lead to the tragedy. You know nothing about the events that unfolded. You know nothing about the police incompetence on the day. But you feel able to sit in judgement, make snide remarks and make ridiculous analogies that can NEVER fit with the actual events. Well congratulations. You just offended a nation.
(First attempt timed out. Trying again. Apologies if repeated)
[li]Failing to wear a seatbelt in a serious accident kills people[/li][li]Failing to maintain electrical equipment and cabling properly.[/li][li]Failing to eat would be an obvious choice, failing to breathe[/li][li]Failure to refuel (aircraft).[/li][li]Failing to watch one’s O2 (diving).[/li]
(thanks MattK and Morrison)
Great! I’ll put that in my resume next to invading France.
“You know nothing about the culture inherent in the game that lead to the tragedy.”
Your right! I don’t care to learn anything about it. It is a game.
“There are some Americans here getting into some VERY deep waters that they know nothing about.”
This is a international fourm, and I’ll get into any water I damn well choose to.
We Yanks tend to see “official impartial” as an oxymoron.
**
Actually, it doesn’t take a Brit to figure out what happened. Crowd dynamics and official screwups are the same all over. And what obviously happened was a combination of official error and a group of people who pushed forward, causing their friends and neighbors to be crushed. The pushers were not the people who died. Why are you defending the people whose actions led directly to the deaths of your countrymen?
**
You mean you have a national tradition of squashing people at sporting events? Sorry if this dumb Yank didn’t know about it :rolleyes:
**
An American here. I have never played soccer, and the few times I have tried to watch it it bored the shit out of me. Just wanted to establish my complete ignorance concerning the game at the outset.
But would you explain how we nasty Americans could have gotten the false impression that soccer crowds have been known to exhibit less than proper decorum? And not just in England. Those soccer fans down in South America sound crazy!
In the American press we frequently see references to fans rioting, fighting with other fans, killing other fans or players, engaging in general hooliganism, throwing objects onto the field or into crowds, etc. Hell, they’ve written books and made movies about it! Please inform me if this level of coverage is grossly overstated, and soccer fans are actually among the most well-behaved to be found.
Please explain to me, what are these “pens” you speak of. I have gone to a number of professional and college sporting and concerts events in the US, and have never been herded into a “pen.” Why are “pens” needed for soccer matches? Are the same required for cricket games, horse racing, rugby matches, or Lennox Lewis bouts?
Is it possible that the police actions and/or omissions in this case may have resulted from their having had to take extreme measures to compensate for extreme fan behavior in the past? As a general rule, I think it is of questionable validity for someone or some group to act inappropriately, and then cast the blame for the consequences on someone who failed to take specific action to protect them. Yes, it sucks that a bunch of thugs may have made it so attending a major soccer game is not a casual family outing. This is the modern world.
Kabbes, I’d suggest that before you try claiming that Americans have no idea what Hillsborough was like, you try doing a search using the key words ‘The Who’ ‘Riverfront Stadium’ and ‘Dec 3rd 1979’.
I grew up in Ohio not to far from Cincinatti, and believe me, we still feel the Riverfront tragidy.
I always regret getting involved in these things, but here goes anyway:
It’s really quite simple, if the people in front of you stop moving, then you stop moving as well. Ok, so the police didn’t set up adequate barriers or have adequate staff to direct people. The police also didn’t force anyone to push forward. The police didn’t force anyone to trample anyone. I just can’t see how the police can be held SOLELY responsible. Just because it’s part of your culture to try and force your way into the game if unrestrained means the police are responsible when it gets out of control? I’m having trouble understanding this logic.
I also don’t see why Gladiator is being held responsible for the content of the doumentary. They didn’t create the documentary, they merely saw it and thought it would fit well with the movie (since it’s mostly about gladiators). I also don’t see how the footage mocks the victims of the tragedy. They’re not pointing at them and laughing, they’re just misrepresenting the cause of the tragedy, and they are in no way glorifying or minimizing their deaths. Especially according to the one poster here who actually watched the documentary.
Gladiator on the other hand, glorifies the deaths of every single person that was ever killed by a gladiator during ancient roman times. We’re supposed to be happy that Maximus kills so many people and becomes famous for it. How come you don’t have an issue with that?
If anything, the police are only partly to blame, the crowd almost entirely to blame, and your culture slightly to blame since a deep rooted love of the game encourages this type of mob behavior at sporting events. You’re even willing to dismiss the mob mentality as normal course.
Isn’t nice when we’re the ones who can sit back and pontificate about English violence, rather than them getting all high and mighty about ours?
[/hijack]
Wow, the whole nation, huh? From a few people here in the SDMB talking about who is responsible in a mob.
Frankly I don’t think it takes a lot of knowledge of British sports to have the opinion that a crowd of people pushing each other hard enough to crush people to death is at least partially responsible for its own actions. Agreed, the police had the opportunity to minimize the tragedy, and they failed. That doesn’t change the fact that some people got so stupid-crazy over a god damn sports event that they crushed almost 100 people to death. Being excited to see some men running around on a field is NOT justification to push and shove. Maybe the British need to go back to kindergarten and re-learn how to stand in line nicely?
I’m not going to enter the argument over whose at fault for the Hillsborough incident. You’re right, I don’t know enough of the facts to make a judgement.
I still, however, question the veracity of the original post. Not to question the reliability of “football365.com” as a news source, but do you have ANY OTHER cites? Their only source seems to be “a statement” released to them. I’ve just spent a while searching the web, and can find nothing related to this. You’d think a major motion picture company apologizing for the content of one of the biggest films of the year might make more news that that.
Furthermore, the website of the Hillsborough Family Support Group makes no mention of it either. You’d think if they were calling for a boycott of one of the biggest films of the year, they might update their website to make a mention of it.
Like the others, I am amazed at this. You have a group of people too stupid/impatient/selfish/inconsiderate/whatever to figure out that the crowd isn’t moving because there is no place to go, and it’s not their fault at all? How the hell did they pull that one off? What, is it routine for British people to block people’s way just to piss them off? If not, then the dumbfucks at the back of the crowd are at least equally responsible, though IMO much more so, for those deaths than any police action or lack thereof.
I completely fail to see how those in the back who did the pushing are not responsible for their own actions. I cannot believe that they are so fucking concerned about a goddamned game that they will crush another human being just to see it. In that case… yeah, ‘hooligans’ is a perfect description.