# Glasnost Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 17, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757 "2011-02-17T23:58:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Wolverine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wolverine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolverine)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/241 "2011-02-24T01:12:15Z")
Since some people ( **Mahaloth** ) thought I was confusing in my apology/backtracking let me try to restate the exchange. I was originally responding to this question. > [@Manwich](#): > > OK. What about a player getting the “Arise, chicken, arise!” message but not being the sleeper, so not being activated. Any reason not to reveal in that case? I am using the assumption that the sleeper message has successfully been transmitted to somebody not scum. If scum false claims, then somebody can contradict them. Still, I’m not thinking clearly about other possibilities and talk about people being confirmed. > [@Wolverine](#): > > I’m having trouble thinking of any. Anyone posting the message should be confirmation that they’re not scum, which would be vanilla town, power town, survivor, or deranged bomber. And no one would counter-claim without taking a major risk. A false claimer would only be able to survive a single-day (if they’re lucky) if they counter-claim. After **GuiriEnEspaña** shows all the ways that scum could successfully false-claim, I apologize and admit I was wrong. Unfortunately I mistyped and forgot the “not” as **sachertorte** pointed out. > [@Wolverine](#): > > You’re right that somebody that posts the message is \*\*[NOT] \*\*confirmed. I was wrong about that. But the question wasn’t what could scum do to make a false claim. Instead it was asking if someone who wasn’t scum received the message, what would be the problem of them claiming. If somebody not scum received the message, then by all means they should post it. It helps prevent scum from false claiming. My main point still stands. If somebody who is not scum receives the sleeper message, they should claim the message. This prevents scum from counter-claiming unless they want a short life. (Thinking about it more, two claims doesn’t confirm anyone either. If no sleeper message goes out, 2 scum could false claim. They would lose one scum with the first lynch, but the other would be confirmed as town. That’s a dangerous game to play because Town will get suspicious if the “confirmed” town survives the night, especially more than once.) I hate voting on Day 1 because I generally have no idea. I do think somebody in the Zeriel - Mahaloth - Idle - Suburban chain is scummy. It is weird that Idle hasn’t claimed and Suburban is voting along with Idle :D, but of those 4, Mahaloth has given me the most questions. -He jumped on me early which is not a big problem. I did think I would get pinged because of my first mistake. However, I’m at a loss for somebody voting for me because I was confusing. > [@Mahaloth](#): > > Dude, it’s an early Day One vote. It’s not the strongest in the world, but it wasn’t a “me too” either. > > - I think his comment may have come out of his own knowledge of who is Town and that his statement could be the result of him not thinking “townishly”. Not an attempt to cause us to blindly agree. > > - If he had explained better or clearer and I was satisfied, yeah, I’d unvote him. Actually, I was thinking _too_ townishly and not considering all the scummy options. This reads to me as someone trying to find an excuse and provide a back-door escape when your vote turns on you. **vote Mahaloth** ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/242 "2011-02-24T01:24:45Z")
Ah, Pleonast is back to his multi-voting in a game that hasn’t included it. Heck, I’ll be stunned if Red counts those. Otherwise, your vote is stuck on Zeriel, I guess? Wolverine, you are striking me as scummiest on this Day(though Pleo is the most annoying…but I expected that). I don’t believe you were thinking too townishly. I just do not buy that or see it. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/243 "2011-02-24T01:36:51Z")
Noise =/= Loud. Posting a lot is loud, but if you post stuff that actually makes sense and is logically consistent, nobody is going to vote for you just for being a prominent voice in the game. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/244 "2011-02-24T01:37:23Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Anyway, I guess there’s no point in discussing reasons for my votes, since I get attacked for doing so. Before I’ve even made the vote. 😛 But I’ll carry on despite the poor play. And your poor play continues…starting with a copout reason for not having reasons of your own. It has NEVER been charming for anyone, scum or town, to sigh melodramatically and say “well, you’re all going to kill me, so I’m just not going to play anymore”. > [@](#): > > **vote Zeriel** for voting for me (162) for voicing tactics they think are not pro-town. So you’re mad at me…because I called your tactics anti-town and voted you for it? Isn’t that kinda, y’know, _what I’m supposed to do?_ > [@](#): > > (Yay! The rules don’t forbid multivotes.) Really, Pleo? Really? > [@](#): > > Yep, it looks like our group is back to its old vote for tactical disagreements and a bit of lynch the loud. Good job, team! :rolleyes: Voting for tactical disagreement is wrong. Voting for people who espouse tactics that help scum is never wrong. Your “tactics” benefit scum more than town, your reasoning for why your “vote for self-preservers” policy isn’t one is spurious, and your martyr act is a complete null–your entire last post may as well have been a big blank. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/245 "2011-02-24T01:38:36Z")
I haven’t seen much of Pleo play, I’m kinda interpreting this as a mini version of the typical Idle incoherent flameout. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/246 "2011-02-24T02:08:02Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I haven’t seen much of Pleo play, I’m kinda interpreting this as a mini version of the typical Idle incoherent flameout. Well, I haven’t really seen an Idle flameout, but basically Pleo believes in risk-taking. He believes in multi-voting. He believes in claiming on Day One…except in Hotel of Heroes where he did not(and was scum). He believes in voting for people that save themselves. He seems to really nitpick rules and loves to critique any decision a mod. makes…to the point of ridiculousness. It’s his way. And he sticks to it. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/247 "2011-02-24T02:16:05Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > > [@special ed](#): > > > > I agree. The early vanilla claims are completely meaningless, and should be treated that way. > > > > On the other hand, a player who insists on posting completely meaningless comments with the intent of getting everyone to talk about something that is completely meaningless is not completely meaningless. > > > > So, while the claim is meaningless, the act of claiming is not meaningless. > > I’ve tried my claim without giving an explanation. I’ve tried my claim with multiple explanations. Either way, players jump all over me. This time I claimed with a brief explanation and there’s been little to no reaction. Which is my intent. > > And here’s your insinuation about my intent. Unless I’m misunderstanding you and you’re actually referring to **peeker** ’s typically garbled posts. Please clarify. My point is simply that your claim is meaningless. That is, it gives me no indication of your alignment whatsoever. That said, the actual act of claiming is not meaningless. it’s taking up space and occupying conversation while providing nothing to the hunt for Scum. Here’s an analogy: I could walk around saying, “I have a big dick.” I could do this all day long, but until my dick is actually revealed or investigated, no one will really know the size of my dick. It’s a meaningless statement. Now, I could walk up to a police detective who is investigating a crime scene and say, “I have a big dick.” The statement carries no additional meaning, but the fact that I did so is hindering his investigation and as such, carries some meaning. OK, a poor analogy, but hopefully you understand. ---
**Author:** ![peekercpa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8baadc/32.png) [@peekercpa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peekercpa)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/248 "2011-02-24T02:23:30Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > “I have a big dick.” \ i’m not touching this with a ten foot pole, so to speak. ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/249 "2011-02-24T02:27:38Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > Sleeper Awakening is the last action to resolve. Killing the other sleeper will turn the first into a survivor before it can be turned into scum (At least if I’m reading Red’s order of action resolution post correctly). > > Also, the dead sleeper will be revealed as such. Missed that the first time around. That makes the sleeper situation a little nicer than it I thought it was. > [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > I’m finding the whole **Pleonast** thing an enormous null tell; I think he’s pretty much wrong on all counts, but I don’t see any reason why his wrongness is inconsistent with his play as a town player in other games. But here’s the thing: he’s not just advocating an incorrect strategy, he’s offering a scummy strategy. He’s advocating that townies roll over and die rather than try to save themselves, a great position for scum. Often, the guy who dies isn’t even the scummiest, but the guy who doesn’t defend himself, and if Pleo engenders that situation, it’s party time for the scumbuddies. He has repeatedly said that **townies should die** \*, which is really hard to interpret as non-scummy. \*Specifically, that they should die if they can provide the town with even the smallest speck of information, which is all kinds of wrong. > [@Pleonast](#): > > I’ve tried my claim without giving an explanation. I’ve tried my claim with multiple explanations. Either way, players jump all over me. This time I claimed with a brief explanation and there’s been little to no reaction. Which is my intent. That is a textbook dodge, Pleo. You have completely forgotten to mention the fact that you also proposed a really controversial policy at the same time you claimed. To insinuate that your lack of heat _because of your roleclaim_ is because of your explanation for your roleclaim only is suspicious, because it’s untrue and it draws attention away from said controversial policy in regards to your actions. > [@Pleonast](#): > > Take the votes on **Pleonast** in this game, for example. What have I actually done? I’ve explained about something I don’t like and think is worth voting for. Have I actually done it? Nope. That’s enough. By proposing the actions, you are engendering pro-scum behavior among the players and have given yourself an “out” for future Days. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/250 "2011-02-24T02:49:23Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > I was tempted to go after **sachertorte** for playing kick-the-Pleonast but not voting for him, but then I remembered the bitter bitter argument **sach** and **story** (both of them Town in that game) carried on for multiple days in On Cecil Pond Mafia. Oh that. At least I haven’t managed to inadvertently call Pleonast stupid. Hi Storyteller 😉 Actually, I’ve seriously debated voting for Pleonast. The problem is if I did so it would be tactically incorrect for this game and would be _purely for punitive reasons_. I’m \>\>this\<\< close to doing it anyway though. (1) With a lack of anything else WTF right? (2) In the continuum of games it makes a statement. Part of me wants to lynch Pleonast EVERY time he pulls stuff like this (yes, I’m feeling vindictive today, why do you ask?) in the hope that he will eventually stop. In otherwords, it might be tactically wrong for this game, but for the sanity of future games, it might be worth it. As tempting as voting for Pleonast would be. I’d rather re-read and find something else shiny. But that will have to wait for the morning. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/251 "2011-02-24T02:56:47Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > Oh that. > At least I haven’t managed to inadvertently call Pleonast stupid. > Hi Storyteller 😉 > > Actually, I’ve seriously debated voting for Pleonast. The problem is if I did so it would be tactically incorrect for this game and would be _purely for punitive reasons_. I’m \>\>this\<\< close to doing it anyway though. > (1) With a lack of anything else WTF right? > (2) In the continuum of games it makes a statement. Part of me wants to lynch Pleonast EVERY time he pulls stuff like this (yes, I’m feeling vindictive today, why do you ask?) in the hope that he will eventually stop. In otherwords, it might be tactically wrong for this game, but for the sanity of future games, it might be worth it. > > As tempting as voting for Pleonast would be. I’d rather re-read and find something else shiny. But that will have to wait for the morning. I agree with points 1 and 2. I’m content not voting right now. If I were voting, it would be on Pleonast. However, I don’t want to contribute to his lead being even more insurmountable. It would take away my sick joy in seeing some self-preservation votes. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/252 "2011-02-24T02:57:52Z")
PS, I’d still like to hear septimus’ response to Tom. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/253 "2011-02-24T03:21:35Z")
You know, **sach** , I’m glad someone owned up to feeling that way, because I completely agree with everything you just said. Except for the part that it’s tactically wrong for this game. I don’t necessarily think it is, because I think he’s said the scummiest things in the thread. But I do think at least a portion the votes for **Pleonast** are for punitive reasons. If you do things that annoy the shit out of other players, you’re going to get votes. Almost everyone who has been the target of such things in the past has made fundamental changes to their gameplay that not only makes them better players, but makes everyone else enjoy the game more as well. If **Pleonast** admitted that he was wrong and altered his gameplay, I’d bet a lot of people would stop voting for him. Instead, he sticks to his guns and goes down in flames, and if he’s claiming truly, he’s hurting my team by doing so. And if his claim is true he also KNOWS he’s hurting Town, which is what I think drives everyone crazy. You may have principles and ideas that you like to stick to, but the point of the game is WINNING, not avoiding concession at all costs. ---
**Author:** ![MentalGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MentalGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MentalGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/254 "2011-02-24T03:46:49Z")
I have no problem with a Pleo lynch both for the reasons sach has listed and also because of the possibilities regarding his claim. Option 1: He is vanilla town and is claiming truthfully. Well, at least we are not losing any power roles and we have a 20% chance that he is a sleeper, so we would deprive the scum of an extra teammate. Option 2: He is scum and is lying. Obviously this would be the best if he is lynched. Option 3: He is town power role and is lying. While I do think there can be cases for pro-town lying, an unforced claim right out of the gate is not one of them. This would be a tremendously bad play on his part and he should expect to be lynched for it. Option 4: He is the Serial Killing Bomber. This would probably be the worst play possible on his part, but it would be good for us. And Pleo, while your policy of voting for self-preservation voters is getting most of the discussion, my vote on you is at least as much for the unnecessary claim as it is for the policy. All that said, I would rather vote for something that I think might point to actual scum rather than the annoying play of Pleo. The only thing that I have seen that has really seemed like that is the Septimus posts that were pointed out by Tom Scud. So I will **Unvote Pleo** **Vote Septimus** ---
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/255 "2011-02-24T03:56:15Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > I’m content not voting right now. If I were voting, it would be on Pleonast. However, I don’t want to contribute to his lead being even more insurmountable. It would take away my sick joy in seeing some self-preservation votes. 😉 :dubious: On the one hand, it’s clear you’re joking; on the other hand, I remember the last time you joked about voting in a scummy manner. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/256 "2011-02-24T04:07:42Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > :dubious: > > On the one hand, it’s clear you’re joking; on the other hand, I remember the last time you joked about voting in a scummy manner. I’m at a loss as to what you are referencing, though I’m sure you’re probably accurate. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/257 "2011-02-24T04:09:29Z")
> [@MentalGuy](#): > > I have no problem with a Pleo lynch both for the reasons sach has listed and also because of the possibilities regarding his claim. > > Option 1: He is vanilla town and is claiming truthfully. Well, at least we are not losing any power roles and we have a 20% chance that he is a sleeper, so we would deprive the scum of an extra teammate. > > Option 2: He is scum and is lying. Obviously this would be the best if he is lynched. > > Option 3: He is town power role and is lying. While I do think there can be cases for pro-town lying, an unforced claim right out of the gate is not one of them. This would be a tremendously bad play on his part and he should expect to be lynched for it. > > Option 4: He is the Serial Killing Bomber. This would probably be the worst play possible on his part, but it would be good for us. > > And Pleo, while your policy of voting for self-preservation voters is getting most of the discussion, my vote on you is at least as much for the unnecessary claim as it is for the policy. > > All that said, I would rather vote for something that I think might point to actual scum rather than the annoying play of Pleo. The only thing that I have seen that has really seemed like that is the Septimus posts that were pointed out by Tom Scud. So I will > > **Unvote Pleo** > > **Vote Septimus** You’re willing to put a vote on Septimus without waiting to hear from him? Did you actually read his posts? When I did, it did make me less susicious. in his first post discussing Pleo, Septimus clearly states his suspicion, yet is hesitant to vote. Not uncommon for a newer player as he claims to be. Then he does cast a vote later in the Day. to me, it struck me more as: I’m not ready to vote for Pleo, but he’s obviously suspicious. to OK, I’ll vote for Pleo since nothing else has come up. Do you disagree with my read of the situation? ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/258 "2011-02-24T04:14:18Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > **vote Zeriel** for voting for me (162) for voicing tactics they think are not pro-town. > **vote MentalGuy** for voting for me (187) for stating a policy they believe is a null tell. > **vote DrainBead** for voting for me (202) for being loud. > **vote Gadarene** for voting for me (208) for having an anti-town position. > **vote pedescribe** for voting for me (216) for no stated reason at all. Any reason why you voted for 5 of the 6 folks voting for you, but left out **septimus**? And are you planning to contribute anything to the game besides a 5-way OMGUS vote? ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/259 "2011-02-24T04:21:44Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > You are way off. Wolverine seemed to think that if someone claims that they received the “arise chicken” message, we can assume they are town. His weak and confusing explanation did not satisfy me, so my vote remains. > > I did NOT make a me too vote at all. At all. I explained my vote. > > You are way off here. You said > [@Mahaloth](#): > > What? I have no idea what your explanation means and I agree with Zeriel that you seem to assume that anyone who claims to get the chicken message would be non-scum. > > Maybe if I carefully re-read your response, I’ll get it. > > No, it does not make sense to me. > **Vote Wolverine** It looks like a “me too” vote to me. I guess technically it’s a “me too…and I don’t understand your explanation” vote. But unless you are trying to make a case that “things that \*\*Mahaloth \*\*doesn’t understand” == “Scum tells”, I don’t see how that is an argument for placing a vote on someone. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/260 "2011-02-24T04:25:06Z")
I have to agree with Suburban. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757.md?page=14)