# Glasnost Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 17, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757 "2011-02-17T23:58:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Trepa\_Mayfield](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@Trepa\_Mayfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trepa_Mayfield)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/261 "2011-02-24T04:28:41Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > I’m at a loss as to what you are referencing, though I’m sure you’re probably accurate. The Dr. Seuss game, when you said you changed your vote off the scum after the deadline as a joke (which was a lie). What I’m saying is, I’ll look like a fun-killer if I tell you that you really should be voting, Schadenfreude or no, but I do intend to pursue you if you don’t vote. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/262 "2011-02-24T04:37:22Z")
Now that’s a policy vote I can endorse. Just to keep things complicated and interesting. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![MentalGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/439d5e/32.png) [@MentalGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MentalGuy)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/263 "2011-02-24T04:38:37Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > You’re willing to put a vote on Septimus without waiting to hear from him? Did you actually read his posts? When I did, it did make me less susicious. in his first post discussing Pleo, Septimus clearly states his suspicion, yet is hesitant to vote. Not uncommon for a newer player as he claims to be. Then he does cast a vote later in the Day. > > to me, it struck me more as: > > I’m not ready to vote for Pleo, but he’s obviously suspicious. > > to > > OK, I’ll vote for Pleo since nothing else has come up. > > Do you disagree with my read of the situation? I don’t think it is a great vote and would like to hear from Septimus also. I just think it is slightly more likely to net scum than the Pleo vote. Primarily, I am trying to get out of the habit of waiting until late in the Day to make my vote and part of that for me is being willing to vote for small things and move my vote around, especially early in the game. Septimus just happens to be the best candidate so far. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 7:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/264 "2011-02-24T07:16:03Z")
I’ve never learned how to tell lies, white or otherwise, and dread the day I’ll get a Scum role in Mafia. Fortunately that Day is not this Day, so I can write with utter candour. > [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Intervening posts by **Pleonast** : zero. > > What happened to change your mind there, sept? (1) In the first post cited I wrote “@ Other players: Has he made a similar argument in previous games where he was Town?” and received no answer. Two recent posts confirm that **Pleonast** has made the argument before, but these appeared after my 2nd cited post. (2) Even after not receiving an answer to that question, I didn’t feel strongly that **Pleonast** was scum, but had no suspicions of anyone else. My instinct was to continue to abstain, but I’ve been told that’s “anti-Town.” I did ask about Sexton points hoping to provoke a discussion that might give other clues for scum-hunting. (3) Time zone difference may have some effect. For me, there was a whole day between the posts of mine **Tom Scud** mentions, while he might have been asleep and woken to perceive them as following each other closely. Similarly, he’s probably fallen asleep waiting for my response, which I make immediately on seeing his post (though delayed slightly by a “SDMB Database Upgrade”). Since I’m sure I’m Town, but unsure of **Pleonast** I’ll leave my vote where it is for self-preservation. 🆒 ---
**Author:** ![Manwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Manwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manwich)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 7:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/265 "2011-02-24T07:50:34Z")
No surprises for day one but I don’t get any strong scum vibes from anyone. It’s getting late and feel I should contribute though. I have no idea about **Pleonast**. It could be guilty scum play or innocent but bad town play. \*\*Septimus \*\*just sounds like he had a candidate for voting but wasn’t ready yet, then later he was ready so he voted. Not suspicious to me. I still think **Wolverine** ’s mistake was understandable in context (I pretty much made the same mistake). I also don’t see how he could have explained his mistake any better. \*\*Mahaloth \*\*did give a reason for voting Wolverine but I am slightly suspicious of his reasoning. He votes in post 147, claiming he can’t even understand **Wolverine** ’s explanation and then defends his decision in [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13495098&postcount=167)and [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13498950&postcount=219), but it isn’t until [post 234](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13499431&postcount=234) that \*\*Mahaloth \*\*explains: > [@](#): > > Dude, it’s an early Day One vote. It’s not the strongest in the world, but it wasn’t a “me too” either. > > - I think his comment may have come out of his own knowledge of who is Town and that his statement could be the result of him not thinking “townishly”. Not an attempt to cause us to blindly agree. > > - If he had explained better or clearer and I was satisfied, yeah, I’d unvote him. I don’t understand how scummy thinking would lead to Wolverine’s mistake. And if **Mahaloth** did think that way when he first voted and defended his, why didn’t _he_ explain more clearly. **Vote Mahaloth** ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/266 "2011-02-24T08:10:34Z")
> [@Our Most Recent Vote Count](#): > > Did Not Vote:Wolverine,Manwich,Astral Rejection,storyteller0910,Tom Scud,Pleonast,One and Only Wanderers,ComeToTheDarksideWeHaveCookies,special ed,guiri,sachertorte In my experience, about half the scum team seems to vote early, and about half holds back and waits to see how the day is going. I did a quick review of heroes mafia and LOTR mafia, and that theory seems to be true. I figure, as far as day 1 votes go, examining the lurkers works as well as anything else, especially since I’m not particularly feeling the Pleo case and it doesn’t need my help even if I did. The first bit I’d like to examine is Cometothedarksidewehavecookies. She voted immediately after the post count, with a vote for Pleonast. Her vote does not appreciably change his fate; he was going down pretty well before her vote. About 20 minutes have elapsed between Red’s vote count and her vote; I’d lean more towards thinking she was already working on her post at the time, doing a reread and collecting quotes. I’m suspicious of everything in this game, but this doesn’t seem particularly scummy. Tom Scud voted next, for Septimus. His case isn’t a bad one, but the suspicious bit of my brain thinks it could be a scummy Tom Scud acting opportunistically on a townie settling his mind on an argument. Septimus says he’s “not ready to vote for [Pleonast].” Then he changes his mind. Not really that inherently scummy. What seems worst about this case is Tom’s final bit before his vote: > [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Intervening posts by **Pleonast** : zero. > > What happened to change your mind there, sept? Allow me to add my own addendum: Intervening posts ABOUT Pleonast: 13, with an additional 4 posts clarifying posts about Pleonast. Out of a maximum of 21 posts between Septimus’ two posts. Next up, Wolverine votes for Mahaloth. I have no comments on this particular back and forth that hasn’t already been addressed. Folks still not voting: Manwich, Astral, Story, Wanderers, Special Ed, Guiri, Sachertorte. **Guiri:** Out of 7 posts, 5 are about game mechanics, 1 talks about how scummy Pleo seems, and 1 questions Mahaloth’s case on Wolverine. Definitely laying low while trying not to look like she’s laying low. This strikes me as scummy. **Manwich:** Out of 6 posts, 4 are mechanics posts or questions, 1 is fluff, and 1 kinda questions Pleonast, but posts only vague concerns about players getting lynched over disagreements about strategy. His last post indicates that he is new, so I’m willing to cut him some slack for now. **Story:** Got a late start to the game, so I’m willing to withhold any judgement or casemaking for the time being. I know I start slow as well, so this is a null tell for me. I agree with the points he’s making [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13497558&postcount=199). **Wanderers:** So far, just mechanics talk, plus a rebuttal of an early vote against him. I’m satisfied with his defense of himself. Playing a low-key early game. **Special Ed:** Insightful early game mechanics talk / strategy. I understand why he might choose not to vote for Pleo, even if he currently finds Pleo scummiest so far. **Sachertorte:** Big, long, detailed posts. Can’t get too upset with these. Definitely not a lurker. Based on this read, I’m gonna say **Vote Tom Scum.** Guiri struck me as next-scummiest, which counts for all but nothing this early in the game. Tom’s blatant misrepresentation of the game state by implying there was nothing that could have settled (not changed) Septimus’ mind. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 8:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/267 "2011-02-24T08:19:17Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Vote Tom Scum. I promise, I didn’t even do that on purpose, but that’s a pretty apt typo. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 9:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/268 "2011-02-24T09:00:01Z")
Recent posts by **Manwich** and **Astral Rejection** have given me food for thought. I’ll re-read and study before my bedtime, but for now just retract a vote which I now doubt was on the “most suspicious” of y’all. 😃 **Unvote pleonast** ---
**Author:** ![GuiriEnEspana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc79bd/32.png) [@GuiriEnEspana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuiriEnEspana)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 10:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/269 "2011-02-24T10:29:49Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > **Guiri:** Out of 7 posts, 5 are about game mechanics, 1 talks about how scummy Pleo seems, and 1 questions Mahaloth’s case on Wolverine. Definitely laying low while trying not to look like she’s laying low. This strikes me as scummy. /snip I’ve commented on game mechanics and strategy related to this specific game in response to ongoing conversations with other players: giving a reason why the Town activated sleeper will probably not claim immediately, why an unforced VT claim is anti-Town in this game, why we should not consider a claim of attempted recruitment a confirmation of Towniness, whether an attempted recruitment should be reported and a comment on the order of actions. I then picked up on a vote that pinged me and have questioned **Mahaloth** twice about his reasoning for his vote. I have also expressed that I disagree with **Pleo** ’s position on a number of items but disagreement, dislike and considering his position anti-town does not make him scummy. If I look at your posts up to now I see: #58- a confirmation #70- oog fluff #73- oog fluff #131-generic strategy question about Vigs #151-a question to **Zeriel** about why he refers to your comment as “town-style foolishness” to which he replied but you made no further comment #266-your post where you vote and express suspicions of others You are misrepresenting my posts. What you consider a null-tell in yourself or other players is scummy when applied to me? Omgus aside, those are two good reasons: **Vote Astral**. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/270 "2011-02-24T12:19:00Z")
Day 1 Vote Tally Pleonast(6) :Zeriel[162], [del]Mental Guy[187-255][/del], Drain Bead[202], Gadarene[208], [del]septimus[212-269][/del], pedescribe[216], peekercpa[230], ComeToTheDarksideWeHaveCookies[236] Mahaloth(4) :Idle Thoughts[159], Suburban Plankton[217], Wolverine[241], Manwich[265] septimus(2) :Tom Scud[238], Mental Guy[255] Wolverine(1) :[del]Zeriel[137-162][/del], Mahaloth[147] pedescribe(1) :Pleonast[240] Tom Scud(1) :Astral Rejection[266] Astral Rejection(1) :guiri[269] One and Only Wanderers(0) :[del]pedescribe[138-216][/del] Zeriel(0) :[del]Pleonast[240-240][/del] Mental Guy(0) :[del]Pleonast[240-240][/del] Drain Bead(0) :[del]Pleonast[240-240][/del] Gadarene(0) :[del]Pleonast[240-240][/del] Did Not Vote:storyteller0910,One and Only Wanderers,septimus,special ed,sachertorte With these votes, Pleonast would be lynched. ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/271 "2011-02-24T12:23:27Z")
\*\*Some one asked about role reveals, and specifically the sleeper role. Before Awakening: [Player] is dead. They were a Vanilla Town (Sleeper). After awakening: [Player] is dead. They were a Vanilla Scum (Sleeper). [Player] is dead. They were a Town Doc (Sleeper). [Player] is dead. They were a 3rd Party Survivor (Sleeper).\*\* ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/272 "2011-02-24T12:55:54Z")
> [@pedescribe](#): > > The Dr. Seuss game, when you said you changed your vote off the scum after the deadline as a joke (which was a lie). What I’m saying is, I’ll look like a fun-killer if I tell you that you really should be voting, Schadenfreude or no, but I do intend to pursue you if you don’t vote. Oh, yeah, I’m still not sure why I wasn’t lynched after that. I mean, it was really incriminating, but instead we lynched the claimed Cop on my accusation. strange ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/273 "2011-02-24T12:59:38Z")
> [@GuiriEnEspana](#): > > /snip > > I’ve commented on game mechanics and strategy related to this specific game in response to ongoing conversations with other players: giving a reason why the Town activated sleeper will probably not claim immediately, why an unforced VT claim is anti-Town in this game, why we should not consider a claim of attempted recruitment a confirmation of Towniness, whether an attempted recruitment should be reported and a comment on the order of actions. > > I then picked up on a vote that pinged me and have questioned **Mahaloth** twice about his reasoning for his vote. I have also expressed that I disagree with **Pleo** ’s position on a number of items but disagreement, dislike and considering his position anti-town does not make him scummy. > > If I look at your posts up to now I see: > #58- a confirmation > #70- oog fluff > #73- oog fluff > #131-generic strategy question about Vigs > #151-a question to **Zeriel** about why he refers to your comment as “town-style foolishness” to which he replied but you made no further comment > #266-your post where you vote and express suspicions of others > > You are misrepresenting my posts. What you consider a null-tell in yourself or other players is scummy when applied to me? > > Omgus aside, those are two good reasons: > > **Vote Astral**. perhaps he was counting all the contributions he was making in the Scum thread? **Vote: Astral** for a weak, made-up case that could have applied to many many people. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/274 "2011-02-24T13:45:15Z")
> [@MentalGuy](#): > > I have no problem with a Pleo lynch both for the reasons sach has listed and also because of the possibilities regarding his claim. > > Option 1: He is vanilla town and is claiming truthfully. Well, at least we are not losing any power roles and we have a 20% chance that he is a sleeper, so we would deprive the scum of an extra teammate. > > Option 2: He is scum and is lying. Obviously this would be the best if he is lynched. > > Option 3: He is town power role and is lying. While I do think there can be cases for pro-town lying, an unforced claim right out of the gate is not one of them. This would be a tremendously bad play on his part and he should expect to be lynched for it. > > Option 4: He is the Serial Killing Bomber. This would probably be the worst play possible on his part, but it would be good for us. > > And Pleo, while your policy of voting for self-preservation voters is getting most of the discussion, my vote on you is at least as much for the unnecessary claim as it is for the policy. > > All that said, I would rather vote for something that I think might point to actual scum rather than the annoying play of Pleo. The only thing that I have seen that has really seemed like that is the Septimus posts that were pointed out by Tom Scud. So I will > > **Unvote Pleo** > > **Vote Septimus** Something about this post doesn’t sit right with me. I read it first earlier this morning and ruminated on it for a while. The main issue I have is that if you look at the balance of the possibilities with **Pleonast** , it seems to support a **Pleonast** lynch. Really the only 100% negative one is #3–even with #1 there’s still a small chance some good could come out of it. And if #3 is actually the case, I’ll eat my shoes. I know **Pleonast** likes to claim on Day One, but I know he knows better than to lie about it if he’s a town power. Down that way lies a nearly sure lynch of a power role at some point in the game. So really, if you look at all the possible permutations, it supports a **Pleonast** lynch. But after posting all the things that are supportive of a **Pleonast** lynch, and saying in the very first sentence of his post that he has no problem with a **Pleonast** lynch, he _unvotes_ **Pleonast** to vote for **Septimus** in an essentially me-too vote made before **septimus** had a chance to defend himself at all. Basically, it’s a post that says “Here’s all these reasons why I was voting for this guy, but now I’m going to stop voting for that guy and vote for this other guy instead, even though the vast majority of this post was about the first guy and not the guy I’m now voting for.” ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/275 "2011-02-24T14:35:54Z")
Doing some re-reading (again). This strikes me as an extremely unfair comment: > [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > The more I think about **Pleonast** , what concerns me much more than what he said is what he didn’t say. That is, he hasn’t said anything about the goings-on in this game. He started out with his by-now-traditional Vanilla claim, and he reiterated his stance on self-preservation votes, and made a few comments about the setup, but had no comment on anything that actually happened in the game itself. Pleo DID comment on the previous conversation in his first post (talking about setup issues, the whole ‘“chicken” should claim’ thing, et cetera); virtually everything between then and the quoted post had revolved around his arguments and people’s responses to his arguments; what else was there for him to comment on? Besides which, it’s bloody exhausting to try and hold up one end of an argument against 5 or 6 people on the other side. Maybe he should have tried to call a halt to the argument at some early stage, but (1) I’m not sure that would have helped and (2) he would have had to reconcile himself to the fact that someone was WRONG on the Internet, and that doesn’t seem to be in the Doper gene. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/276 "2011-02-24T15:06:57Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > Oh that. > At least I haven’t managed to inadvertently call Pleonast stupid. > Hi Storyteller 😉 > > Actually, I’ve seriously debated voting for Pleonast. The problem is if I did so it would be tactically incorrect for this game and would be _purely for punitive reasons_. I’m \>\>this\<\< close to doing it anyway though. > (1) With a lack of anything else WTF right? > (2) In the continuum of games it makes a statement. Part of me wants to lynch Pleonast EVERY time he pulls stuff like this (yes, I’m feeling vindictive today, why do you ask?) in the hope that he will eventually stop. In otherwords, it might be tactically wrong for this game, but for the sanity of future games, it might be worth it. > > As tempting as voting for Pleonast would be. I’d rather re-read and find something else shiny. But that will have to wait for the morning. The problem with punitive voting is that it puts me in the position of choosing between collecting votes or playing scummy. I refuse to do the latter, so I’m forced to accept the former. If you want me to change my tactics, you’ll need address what my tactics actually are, instead of the caricature you’ve been objecting to. Part of the problem is my failure to describe my thoughts well. If you want to vote for me for muddled explanations, so be it. Next game, I’ll still be describing and voting for what I think is scummy behavior. Maybe I’ll explain better then. But surely part of the problem is others looking to score rhetorical points against me rather than engage in discussion. That helps put votes on me, but does nothing to change my mind when what you’re arguing against is not what I think I’m doing. > [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > You know, **sach** , I’m glad someone owned up to feeling that way, because I completely agree with everything you just said. Except for the part that it’s tactically wrong for this game. I don’t necessarily think it is, because I think he’s said the scummiest things in the thread. But I do think at least a portion the votes for **Pleonast** are for punitive reasons. If you do things that annoy the shit out of other players, you’re going to get votes. Almost everyone who has been the target of such things in the past has made fundamental changes to their gameplay that not only makes them better players, but makes everyone else enjoy the game more as well. If **Pleonast** admitted that he was wrong and altered his gameplay, I’d bet a lot of people would stop voting for him. Instead, he sticks to his guns and goes down in flames, and if he’s claiming truly, he’s hurting my team by doing so. And if his claim is true he also KNOWS he’s hurting Town, which is what I think drives everyone crazy. You may have principles and ideas that you like to stick to, but the point of the game is WINNING, not avoiding concession at all costs. And that applies as well to you. You’ll not change my mind when what you say I’m doing is not what I think I’m doing. I don’t think I’m wrong. I’m not going to play in a way I think is scummy, which is what you’re suggesting I do. Being lynched is preferable to playing bad. > [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > Any reason why you voted for 5 of the 6 folks voting for you, but left out **septimus**? > > And are you planning to contribute anything to the game besides a 5-way OMGUS vote? I voted for the players who’ve made egregiously anti-town votes. Those are not OMGUS votes. ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/277 "2011-02-24T15:09:55Z")
Pleo - I understand your stance regarind self-survival votes. DOn’t agree, but at least I get it. I do NOT however understand your out of the gate vanilla claim. What is the benefit to town there? ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/278 "2011-02-24T15:27:53Z")
> [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > Pleo - I understand your stance regarind self-survival votes. DOn’t agree, but at least I get it. I do NOT however understand your out of the gate vanilla claim. What is the benefit to town there? The benefit is that it forces a decision on scum, one that they may make the wrong choice. They may try to recruit me, and fail if I was untruthful. They may try to kill me, and waste their kill if I was truthful, or fail if I was untruthful. Or they may not use any powers on me and lose a chance at recruitment if I was truthful, or lose a chance to kill a power role if I was not. All that, for the slight cost of a statement that has no information content. ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/279 "2011-02-24T15:29:06Z")
> [@special\_ed](#): > > perhaps he was counting all the contributions he was making in the Scum thread? > > **Vote: Astral** > > for a weak, made-up case that could have applied to many many people. Psst, Ed! I’m not voting for Guiri, I’m voting for Tom Scud. Unless I’m mistaken, he really did imply that nothing had changed between Septimus’ two posts. Therefore, I neither made the case up nor does it apply to “many many” people. I have no case on Guiri, I just remarked that her posts struck me as laying low. On day 1, how can I possibly do better than a gut feeling? Perhaps by voting for someone who’s actually done something suspicious? ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/280 "2011-02-24T15:32:08Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > The benefit is that it forces a decision on scum, one that they may make the wrong choice. They may try to recruit me, and fail if I was untruthful. They may try to kill me, and waste their kill if I was truthful, or fail if I was untruthful. Or they may not use any powers on me and lose a chance at recruitment if I was truthful, or lose a chance to kill a power role if I was not. All that, for the slight cost of a statement that has no information content. It also forces a decision on town, on whether you are on the up and up, or are scum blowing smoke up our collective asses. Does this downside not negate your upside? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757.md?page=15)