# Glasnost Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 17, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757 "2011-02-17T23:58:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/281 "2011-02-24T15:32:53Z")
But the Scum have to deal with making those decisions with every single last one of us regardless of whether or not we make a vanilla claim. They know who isn’t Scum. If you’re being truthful, you potentially make it easier for the Scum to deal with you. If you’re not, you make it potentially more difficult for the Town to deal with you later, if and when you claim correctly. In what way did claiming VT out of the gate make any problems for Scum that didn’t already exist prior to your claim? ---
**Author:** ![Astral\_Rejection](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@Astral\_Rejection](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Astral_Rejection)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/282 "2011-02-24T15:43:33Z")
> [@GuiriEnEspana](#): > > You are misrepresenting my posts. What you consider a null-tell in yourself or other players is scummy when applied to me? > > Omgus aside, those are two good reasons: > > **Vote Astral**. Where exactly do I misrepresent your posts? I make no commentary whatsoever about the content of your posts. I say: > [@](#): > > Out of 7 posts, 5 are about game mechanics, 1 talks about how scummy Pleo seems, and 1 questions Mahaloth’s case on Wolverine. Definitely laying low while trying not to look like she’s laying low. This strikes me as scummy. You’re being ridiculously over-defensive for a day 1 smudge. Yes, you’re correct that I find similar behavior to be somewhat less suspicious in other players (Manwich I give a pass to, Wanderers I merely remark as “low-key”), the honest reason is that I consider you to be a very strong player, and that ends up in my calculations. Hanging low at the beginning is a good trait for scum (that’s why I decided to look there on day 1), and you’re a smart enough player to post insightful strategy or game mechanics questions without really getting involved with much of actual substance. It’s just a gut feeling that earned 3 sentences from me in a post discussing all of our non-voters. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/283 "2011-02-24T15:51:53Z")
> [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](#): > > It also forces a decision on town, on whether you are on the up and up, or are scum blowing smoke up our collective asses. > Does this downside not negate your upside? > [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > But the Scum have to deal with making those decisions with every single last one of us regardless of whether or not we make a vanilla claim. They know who isn’t Scum. If you’re being truthful, you potentially make it easier for the Scum to deal with you. If you’re not, you make it potentially more difficult for the Town to deal with you later, if and when you claim correctly. In what way did claiming VT out of the gate make any problems for Scum that didn’t already exist prior to your claim? Answering both of you. The usefulness of the claim is inversely proportional to how much of a null statement it is. If one believes it is exactly a null statement, then there is neither reward nor risk. If one believes it is not a null statement, then the risks and rewards are proportional. Since the number of ways scum can make a mistake with respect to the claim (they have multiple options for dealing with me) is greater than the number of ways the town can make a mistake (a mislynch), the rewards are greater than the risks. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/284 "2011-02-24T15:52:07Z")
I’ve decided it is very premature to Lynch **Pleonast**. There is another much more suspicious. **Vote Mahaloth** Here is the Wolverine --\> Zeriel --\> Mahaloth --\> Idle skirmish as I perceive it. [ul] [li] Wolverine makes a tiny slip, with no possible scum motive; soon recants.[/li][li] Zeriel votes Wolverine, not for scum slip, but for skimming.[/li][li] Mahaloth votes Wolverine “for not making sense” without ascribing scum motive. Skimming _may_ be a scum-tell (really?), but slight logic flaws might almost be a town-tell, given that the scums can coach each other.[/li][li] Idle votes Mahaloth for the same reason I do. Mahaloth’s post “pinged” me at the time, and pings me on reread.[/li][/ul] Now, Scum might be trying to start a flimsy case, but Idle’s and other Mahaloth-voting posts seem brief and matter-of-fact to me. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/285 "2011-02-24T16:00:57Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > (1) In the first post cited I wrote > “@ Other players: Has he made a similar argument in previous games where he was Town?” and received no answer. Two recent posts confirm that **Pleonast** has made the argument before, but these appeared after my 2nd cited post. There were several previous posts that had indicated that Pleonast had done the same thing previously (Suburban in 169, Mahaloth in 177, and especially Sach’s extended self-dialogue in 173); I’ll allow that you may not have been reading with as jaded an eye as I was. > [@](#): > > (2) Even after not receiving an answer to that question, I didn’t feel strongly that **Pleonast** was scum, but had no suspicions of anyone else. My instinct was to continue to abstain, but I’ve been told that’s “anti-Town.” I wish you had been explicit about this. That said, I understand the clock pressure, I can see how there was enough time to simply digest the previous goings-on, and I’ve seen a couple things that bear further scrutiny. **Unvote Septimus** > [@Astral Reject](#): > > Tom Scud voted next, for Septimus. His case isn’t a bad one, but the suspicious bit of my brain thinks it could be a scummy Tom Scud acting opportunistically on a townie settling his mind on an argument. Septimus says he’s “not ready to vote for [Pleonast].” Then he changes his mind. Not really that inherently scummy. What seems worst about this case is Tom’s final bit before his vote: > > > [@](#): > > > > Intervening posts by Pleonast: zero > > Allow me to add my own addendum: Intervening posts ABOUT Pleonast: 13, with an additional 4 posts clarifying posts about Pleonast. Out of a maximum of 21 posts between Septimus’ two posts. However, let’s look at **Septimus’s** stated reason: > [@](#): > > I’m suspicious of Pleonast – he objects to votes which “don’t provide information”, yet proposes to apply his own automatic lynching rule, which will therefore provide no information. A rule, no less, that would allow scum to jump on a bandwagon against a Townie with no justification other than “he tried self-preservation.” There were a number of earlier Pleo-related posts that had mentioned this, more or less, including Sach in 157; Zeriel in 162; Sach again in 165 and 173; maybe Cookies in 182 and Z in 183. After Septimus makes his first post, Sach went around the circle again in 192; to some degree peeker in 194… and that’s it before Septimus in 212. Implying that Septimus might have been more influenced by those 2 posts more than the 6 (and Pleo’s responses) that came before is… odd. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/286 "2011-02-24T16:06:02Z")
Pleo, could you please comment on the game actions that are not directly related to the various debates sparked by your first post? (Astral/me/Septimus/Guiri/Mental Guy; Mahaloth/Wolverine/Zeriel/Idle)? If you do end up flipping Town it would be nice to have that information. (Ditto if you flip Scum, of course). ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/287 "2011-02-24T16:07:24Z")
Can we get a vote count? ---
**Author:** ![One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/838e76/32.png) [@One\_And\_Only\_Wanderers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/One_And_Only_Wanderers)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/288 "2011-02-24T16:07:51Z")
It looks like we have a 2 horse race here. I am not loving the case on either Mahaloth or Pleo, but I find Pleo’s play the scummiest of the two. **vote Pleo** ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/289 "2011-02-24T16:10:13Z")
I have adequately explained my case on Wolverine and while it is not super strong, it is a decent Day One vote. The buildup around me(and frankly, Pleo) is lazy, easy, and reeks of people just being happy it isn’t them that are up for the lynch. Oh, and I would guess scum are more than happy to just slip their votes in quietly and move on. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/290 "2011-02-24T16:15:37Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > Pleo, could you please comment on the game actions that are not directly related to the various debates sparked by your first post? (Astral/me/Septimus/Guiri/Mental Guy; Mahaloth/Wolverine/Zeriel/Idle)? If you do end up flipping Town it would be nice to have that information. (Ditto if you flip Scum, of course). I haven’t seen scum motivation or anything particularly anti-town in those discussions. Other than some votes on me that are blatantly anti-town, I haven’t seen anything worthy of a vote. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/291 "2011-02-24T16:18:33Z")
My top two scum candidates are: Idle and Wolverine I’ve explained my vote on Wolverine, but why aren’t we discussing Idle? He drops in, votes me for being the 2nd to vote on someone, then disappears. Seriously, he has only two posts in Day One and one was a quick vote for me that was lame and the other is just his comment about Jsexton points. **If anything looks like a scum just dropping by, trying to say as little as possible, make a quick(but weak) vote, it’s what Idle has done.** In fact, he’s more scummy than Wolverine to me. I’d be that one or both of these guys are scum. **Unvote Wolverine** **Vote Idle** ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/292 "2011-02-24T16:32:36Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Answering both of you. The usefulness of the claim is inversely proportional to how much of a null statement it is. If one believes it is exactly a null statement, then there is neither reward nor risk. If one believes it is not a null statement, then the risks and rewards are proportional. Since the number of ways scum can make a mistake with respect to the claim (they have multiple options for dealing with me) is greater than the number of ways the town can make a mistake (a mislynch), the rewards are greater than the risks. Except that it IS exactly a null statement–it has no proof, it has no weight, it’s just confusing an issue for town. It was said upthread a bit that minor logic flaws might be a pro-town tell since scum can coach each other. My scum experiences in the past bear that out, as well as the idea that scum are not paying any attention whatsoever to this kind of unforced claim. It’s a gambit, you’ve SAID it was a gambit–which comes across as Peter Griffin “sneaking” by walking on tiptoe and singing “da-da-da-da-dun-dah!”. Disruptive play is always anti-town–it causes us to focus on things. Your claim was disruptive. Your multi-vote was disruptive. You don’t get a free pass for “la la, I’m going to do things that are disruptive that the rest of town doesn’t like” and then get all hurt because we’re voting for you. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/293 "2011-02-24T16:33:37Z")
> [@Mahaloth](#): > > …but why aren’t we discussing Idle? He drops in, votes me for being the 2nd to vote on someone, then disappears. > > Seriously, he has only two posts in Day One and one was a quick vote for me that was lame and the other is just his comment about Jsexton points. > > **If anything looks like a scum just dropping by, trying to say as little as possible, make a quick(but weak) vote, it’s what Idle has done.** This is a damn fine point and I’d love to hear Idle have something to say about it. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/294 "2011-02-24T16:41:16Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Answering both of you. The usefulness of the claim is inversely proportional to how much of a null statement it is. If one believes it is exactly a null statement, then there is neither reward nor risk. If one believes it is not a null statement, then the risks and rewards are proportional. Since the number of ways scum can make a mistake with respect to the claim (they have multiple options for dealing with me) is greater than the number of ways the town can make a mistake (a mislynch), the rewards are greater than the risks. Your issue, I think, provided that you’re on the up-and-up here, is that you’re looking at flat numbers, without weighing the odds of each occurrence’s potential of actually happening. Giving the Scum a bunch of WIFOM is all well and good until you realize that by attempting to do so, you’re very likely to get lynched for it. If the odds of getting lynched are higher than the odds of fucking with Scum, what you’ve done is a very poor play. The WIFOM you’re giving the Scum isn’t going to work if you’re dead before they even get to act upon it. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/295 "2011-02-24T16:47:59Z")
I’m not the one voting to lynch me. ---
**Author:** ![GuiriEnEspana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc79bd/32.png) [@GuiriEnEspana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuiriEnEspana)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/296 "2011-02-24T16:57:23Z")
> [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Where exactly do I misrepresent your posts? I make no commentary whatsoever about the content of your posts. I say: “1 talks about how scummy Pleo seems” - I dislike and disagree with his opinions but explicitly said I wouldn’t vote a player based on a disagreement “and 1 questions Mahaloth’s case on Wolverine” - in the context of your post, you seemed to be handwaving the fact that I was actively pursuing my suspicions of another player (in 2 posts :)) > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > You’re being ridiculously over-defensive for a day 1 smudge. It was a baseless smudge based on a double-standard. > [@Astral\_Rejection](#): > > Yes, you’re correct that I find similar behavior to be somewhat less suspicious in other players (Manwich I give a pass to, Wanderers I merely remark as “low-key”), the honest reason is that I consider you to be a very strong player, and that ends up in my calculations. Hanging low at the beginning is a good trait for scum (that’s why I decided to look there on day 1), and you’re a smart enough player to post insightful strategy or game mechanics questions without really getting involved with much of actual substance. It’s just a gut feeling that earned 3 sentences from me in a post discussing all of our non-voters. The comment on **Special Ed** ’s “insightful early game mechanics talk/strategy” greatly contrasts with your statement that my play “strikes [you] as scummy” and also contrasts with your comment that **story** and you “start slow, so this is a null tell for me” - both players eminently stronger and more experienced than I am. ---
**Author:** ![Drain\_Bead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e47774/32.png) [@Drain\_Bead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drain_Bead)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/297 "2011-02-24T16:58:54Z")
And the fact that people are is coming as a shock to you? ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/298 "2011-02-24T17:11:16Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > This is a damn fine point and I’d love to hear Idle have something to say about it. Gosh, that’d be wonderful, but we are heading towards the end of the Day and it’d be a better scum move to just keep his trap shut at this point. I can not believe he has not collected votes for his play style so far. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/299 "2011-02-24T17:13:42Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > And the fact that people are is coming as a shock to you? I’m not responsible for other players’ bad play. ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/300 "2011-02-24T17:16:47Z")
> [@Drain\_Bead](#): > > And the fact that people are is coming as a shock to you? I do not see the point in this post. Are you just trying to stir up more Pleo discussion to distract us? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757.md?page=16)