# Glasnost Mafia **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [February 17, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757 "2011-02-17T23:58:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/341 "2011-02-24T21:48:57Z")
This is Day One. Stated positions are one of the only things we have to go on. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/342 "2011-02-24T21:57:35Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Yes. You’re voting for me for my stated position, and not anything I’ve done. It’s a classic “I disagree with them about this tactic so I’m voting for them”. Your tactic has been shown to be at best of no value, and at worst have pro-scum results. Yet you refuse to recant, and clutter up the day with your diatribes. Thus, you are evincing pro-scum behavior in your defense of your pro-scum tactic. I mean, get serious. If someone stood up and said “I’m going to vote for all claimed town power roles, because I never believe claims”, you’re telling me that’s not worth a Day One vote no matter how piously they defend it? Only a difference of degree. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/343 "2011-02-24T22:10:15Z")
> [@Gadarene](#): > > This is Day One. Stated positions are one of the only things we have to go on. It looks like only three players out of 21 have placed votes based on stated positions rather than actions. > [@Zeriel](#): > > I mean, get serious. If someone stood up and said “I’m going to vote for all claimed town power roles, because I never believe claims”, you’re telling me that’s not worth a Day One vote no matter how piously they defend it? Only a difference of degree. Yes, it’s not deserving a vote. Words are cheap. Actions have meaning. Voting for players based purely on what they’ve said discourages players from talking. Unlike scum, we have only this channel to discuss things. If players censor themselves to only what they feel is safe and noncontroversial, then we diminish our collective creativity. Look over past games. Time and time again, most arguments over tactics are between townies with differing honestly-held opinions. Scum prefer to avoid controversy because controversy attracts votes. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/344 "2011-02-24T22:25:12Z")
No one has yet mentioned that the special mechanics of _this_ game introduce unusual considerations into the lynching of a claimed vanilla town. I planned on commenting on this toMorrow, but with the game delayed I’ll blurt it out now, at least in cryptic form. I _think_ it’s wisest here to delay the lynch of a claimed vanilla town; that’s one reason why I’m not voting Pleonast. ---
**Author:** ![Gadarene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Gadarene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gadarene)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/345 "2011-02-24T22:27:58Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Time and time again, most arguments over tactics are between townies with differing honestly-held opinions. Scum prefer to avoid controversy because controversy attracts votes. I do agree with this. And I wouldn’t be surprised if you flipped vanilla. But pending a reread of the Day so far, I don’t have any better candidates, and I’m comfortable with leaving my vote where it is. ---
**Author:** ![sachertorte](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sachertorte/32/3727_2.png) [@sachertorte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sachertorte)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/346 "2011-02-24T22:43:45Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > No one has yet mentioned that the special mechanics of _this_ game introduce unusual considerations into the lynching of a claimed vanilla town. I planned on commenting on this toMorrow, but with the game delayed I’ll blurt it out now, at least in cryptic form. > > I _think_ it’s wisest here to delay the lynch of a claimed vanilla town; that’s one reason why I’m not voting Pleonast. That’s odd. I’m thinking the exact opposite. 21 Players: 4 Scum 1 Bomber 2 sleepers Lynching any of these is good for Town. 7/21 chance of hitting a good lynch (1/3). For Pleonast the probability is significantly better. Based on the vanilla claim Pleonast is Not a Jailer, Cop, Mason. Lynching Pleonast has a 7/15 chance of hitting a good lynch (just under 50%). Wow! I hadn’t actually written down the numbers before. I thought it would be marginally better, but that’s actually pretty significant. Someone check my math! ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/347 "2011-02-24T23:00:49Z")
> [@sachertorte](#): > > That’s odd. I’m thinking the exact opposite. > > 21 Players: > 4 Scum > 1 Bomber > 2 sleepers > > Lynching any of these is good for Town. 7/21 chance of hitting a good lynch (1/3). > > For Pleonast the probability is significantly better. Based on the vanilla claim Pleonast is Not a Jailer, Cop, Mason. > Lynching Pleonast has a 7/15 chance of hitting a good lynch (just under 50%). > > Wow! I hadn’t actually written down the numbers before. I thought it would be marginally better, but that’s actually pretty significant. > > Someone check my math! I was thinking along the same lines as **sachertorte** , but I do have one thing I’m uncertain about… Is it necessarily a ‘good thing’ to lynch a Sleeper?. If we do so, we prevent the Scum from gaining an extra member, but we also prevent the Town from gaining a Doctor. Also, we introduce a Survivor, which is better than Scum, but worse than Vanilla Town (since he can’t be counted on to be pro-Town in his actions). So which is better? A Doc and a Scum, or no Doc and a 3rd Party? I \*think \*the latter is still better, but I don’t think it’s an open and shut case. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/348 "2011-02-24T23:03:04Z")
There was some discussion earlier using the point system; seems like if you believe that system it’s a plus for town. ---
**Author:** ![Suburban\_Plankton](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/suburban_plankton/32/219_2.png) [@Suburban\_Plankton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Suburban_Plankton)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/349 "2011-02-24T23:05:51Z")
> [@Tom\_Scud](#): > > There was some discussion earlier using the point system; seems like if you believe that system it’s a plus for town. Yes, but not overwhelmingly so, and I’m not sure how many JSexton points a non-win-stealing survivor is worth… ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/350 "2011-02-24T23:15:06Z")
The way I look at it, under almost all circumstances I’d consider trading a Doc for a vanilla Scum to be a net win for Town. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/351 "2011-02-24T23:16:48Z")
Editing my previous post: “… I’ll blurt it out now, at least in cryptic form. I _think_ it’s wisest here to delay the lynch of a claimed vanilla town; that’s one reason why I’m not voting Pleonast.” ---
**Author:** ![Mahaloth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mahaloth/32/1079_2.png) [@Mahaloth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mahaloth)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/352 "2011-02-24T23:31:52Z")
**May we please have a vote count?** ---
**Author:** ![Manwich](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e480ec/32.png) [@Manwich](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Manwich)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/353 "2011-02-24T23:35:35Z")
It’s difficult playing in this time zone because I seem to be either at work or sleeping during most of the activity. I have tried to catch up this morning on what happened while I was asleep but I won’t have time to read in detail until after work. Mahaloth, can you explain why you didn’t completely explain your reasons for voting Wolverine until your 4th post about him? At first I (and others) thought you were accusing him of deliberately trying to lull the town into a false sense of security, but eventually you explained you thought it was a scum-type mistake. Can you explain how a scummy Wolverine makes him likely to have made his mistake? Why is the case is against you “lazy and easy” but your case against Wolverine a decent day one vote? I really don’t think you have adequately explained your reasoning, and I would like to hear more. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/354 "2011-02-24T23:36:14Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > Look over past games. Time and time again, most arguments over tactics are between townies with differing honestly-held opinions. Scum prefer to avoid controversy because controversy attracts votes. You have evidence to back this up? Or is this just something you’re assuming because it supports your position. ---
**Author:** ![GuiriEnEspana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc79bd/32.png) [@GuiriEnEspana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GuiriEnEspana)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/355 "2011-02-24T23:37:38Z")
> [@storyteller0910](#): > > Hrm. You said this, explicitly: > > …I think, that in some ways, this passaage is indeed talking about “how Scummy Pleo seems.” That you eventually settled on “not Scummy enough to warrant a vote” doesn’t change the fact that the substance of your post was reflecting on the relative Scumminess of his actions. Anti-town, I was commenting on how **Pleo** ’s policies are anti-town. > [@storyteller0910](#): > > In fact, this whole passage raises my eyebrow quite a bit. You don’t just disagree with Pleo’s actions/positions, you go so far as to call (one of) them “leaning scummy.” But then you wave it away via a thought process that I don’t really understand. So if you think Action X is Scummy but the player who commits Action X just says, “I disagree, it’s not Scummy,” that’s sufficient to make the whole thing qualify as “just as a difference of opinion?” The whole thing seems like a having-cake-eating-cake thing: well, Pleo’s wrong about everything, and leaning Scummy about certain things, but I won’t vote for him, because he disagrees with me so that makes “leaning Scummy” not matter anymore? I’m struggling to find an analogy here. **Pleo** thinks pure self-defense votes are scummy and will vote them. I prefer to judge the individual case and circumstances leading up to and including the self-defense vote. He seems to believe that his policy is the correct Town play but I can see potential for scum to use this sort of policy vote to avoid accountability. Is that a reason to vote him now? I don’t think so, I’d rather evaluate his actions in the case of an eventual self-defense vote. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/356 "2011-02-24T23:39:41Z")
> [@Suburban\_Plankton](#): > > I was thinking along the same lines as **sachertorte** , but I do have one thing I’m uncertain about… > > Is it necessarily a ‘good thing’ to lynch a Sleeper?. If we do so, we prevent the Scum from gaining an extra member, but we also prevent the Town from gaining a Doctor. Also, we introduce a Survivor, which is better than Scum, but worse than Vanilla Town (since he can’t be counted on to be pro-Town in his actions). > > So which is better? A Doc and a Scum, or no Doc and a 3rd Party? > > I \*think \*the latter is still better, but I don’t think it’s an open and shut case. yes, it’s good. Very good. We don’t want extra Scum for just a Doctor. As to the survivor, yes, 1 Town turns into a Survivor, but that’s better than that Town turning into a Scum. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/357 "2011-02-24T23:41:39Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Editing my previous post: > > “… I’ll blurt it out now, at least in cryptic form. > I _think_ it’s wisest here to delay the lynch of a claimed vanilla town; that’s one reason why I’m not voting Pleonast.” oh That really wasn’t that cryptic. ---
**Author:** ![ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e9bcb4/32.png) [@ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ComeToTheDarkSideWeHaveCookies)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2011, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/358 "2011-02-24T23:57:37Z")
I can’t really think of a situation where I wouldn’t trade a live Doc for a dead scum. It is a bit weird to be voting for Pleo over something that he hasn’t done yet, but what he _has_ done is advocate something that I parse as a double standard. ‘I am going to automatically vote for anyone who automatically votes for someone because of something else, because automatically voting is anti-town’ ---
**Author:** ![Red\_Skeezix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/aca169/32.png) [@Red\_Skeezix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Red_Skeezix)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/359 "2011-02-25T00:08:26Z")
Day 1 Vote Tally Pleonast(8) :Zeriel[162], [del]Mental Guy[187-255][/del], Drain Bead[202], Gadarene[208], [del]septimus[212-269][/del], pedescribe[216], peekercpa[230], ComeToTheDarksideWeHaveCookies[236], One and Only Wanderers[288], Tom Scud[327] Mahaloth(5) :Idle Thoughts[159], Suburban Plankton[217], Wolverine[241], Manwich[265], septimus[284] Astral Rejection(3) :guiri[269], special ed[273], sachertorte[317] septimus(1) :[del]Tom Scud[238-285][/del], Mental Guy[255] pedescribe(1) :Pleonast[240] Tom Scud(1) :Astral Rejection[266] Idle Thoughts(1) :Mahaloth[291] guiri(1) :storyteller0910[306] Wolverine(0) :[del]Zeriel[137-162][/del], [del]Mahaloth[147-291][/del] One and Only Wanderers(0) :[del]pedescribe[138-216][/del] Zeriel(0) :[del]Pleonast[240-240][/del] Mental Guy(0) :[del]Pleonast[240-240][/del] Drain Bead(0) :[del]Pleonast[240-240][/del] Gadarene(0) :[del]Pleonast[240-240][/del] Did Not Vote: With these votes Pleonast would be lynched. Day 1 will end in just under 24 hours. ---
**Author:** ![special\_ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@special\_ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/special_ed)\ **Post date:** [February 25, 2011, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757/360 "2011-02-25T00:10:18Z")
> [@Red\_Skeezix](#): > > Day 1 will end in just under 24 hours. are you sure? :eek: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/glasnost-mafia/571757.md?page=19)