# Global Population: What to do about our ever growing species? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 12, 2010, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-population-what-to-do-about-our-ever-growing-species/546391 "2010-07-12T14:40:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-population-what-to-do-about-our-ever-growing-species/546391/21 "2010-07-12T20:44:25Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > And if the technology exists to power society without fossil fuels, there has been tremendous foot-dragging in implementing it. We’re still a long ways off. Necessity is the mother of invention. Always has been, always will be. Alternative power exsists many places but it really won’t be tapped until necessary. “Holy crap, gasoline just hit $50/gallon? How much is that natural gas sedan again?” ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-population-what-to-do-about-our-ever-growing-species/546391/22 "2010-07-12T20:51:01Z")
So even if we are faciong overpopulation - and I don’t thing we are - so what? The population will eventually reduce itself through the usual means of war, famine and plague, we’ll have a bad couple of centuries, and things will return to normal. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-population-what-to-do-about-our-ever-growing-species/546391/23 "2010-07-12T20:53:44Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > So even if we are faciong overpopulation - and I don’t thing we are - so what? The population will eventually reduce itself through the usual means of war, famine and plague, we’ll have a bad couple of centuries, and things will return to normal. You rather answered your own question. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-population-what-to-do-about-our-ever-growing-species/546391/24 "2010-07-12T20:55:03Z")
That’s just the thing. It’s all Economics and Availability. Cheap Oil meant that nothing else got developed, just as cheap cars and gas meant death for some forms of public transportation until costs and demand reached a point where it was desirable again. There was no point in tapping the shale sands of Canada until the rising price of oil met the dropping price of the technology required to extract the oil. As prices rise and availability drops, research and development will bring in other technologies on-line. But they don’t exist in a vacuum and they don’t pop into existence fully formed like Athena sprouting from the head of Zeus. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Whisperer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cat_whisperer/32/4839_2.png) [@Cat\_Whisperer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Whisperer)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-population-what-to-do-about-our-ever-growing-species/546391/25 "2010-07-12T21:36:59Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > So even if we are faciong overpopulation - and I don’t thing we are - so what? The population will eventually reduce itself through the usual means of war, famine and plague, we’ll have a bad couple of centuries, and things will return to normal. I agree that we are likely to see population reduction through drastic means, but the problem with that scenario is that we will have used up and degraded so many natural resources by that time. I read a book recently ([Limits to Growth: The 30 Year Update](http://www.clubofrome.at/archive/limits.html)) that addressed all of these issues as a whole; what they figured out was that we can reach a state of equilibrium on earth, but we have to change a bunch of things to do so. For us to continue doing things as we are will result in collapse, and collapse is not kind to your average human. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-population-what-to-do-about-our-ever-growing-species/546391/26 "2010-07-12T22:31:11Z")
If you really want to reduce population growth, move to Africa and teach school to girls. Education and civil rights for women are the way to reduce fertility, and besides that are good in and of themselves. If you wanna do nothing about population growth, talk about how we should force people to stop having kids. Because guess what, you’re not going to go over to Africa and start forcing women not to have kids. Give them an education, give them options, and they’ll voluntarily choose to control their own fertility. Draconian China-style population control measures won’t work in places without a strong central government. And note that fertility is dropping all over the world. It doesn’t just happen when people are forced to by the government, it also happens when people can choose for themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-population-what-to-do-about-our-ever-growing-species/546391/27 "2010-07-12T23:14:02Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > There’s no such problem as over population in modern countries. You’d think there is, but there isn’t. There are more than enough resources on Earth to supply 10+ billion people with food, water, clothing, shelter and entertainment – comfortably. > > And, people stop breeding once they have a moderately decent quality of life – look at Russia, Ebgland and the USA. Some even have declining, rather than just mostly stagnant populations. The USA is still growing in population, but not nearly as fast as it used to. > > Also, why would we start living in trees when we ran out of boxes to live in? We could just build more boxes. Also, apartments are in no way inferior to homes, homes are just boxes that are lonely. Not only do they stop growing and start declining, but virtually all nations start declining in population once they hit a decent level of wealth. Especially the east asian countries. You need 2.1 kids per woman to keep population stable, and east asian nations only have about 1.3 while western europe is about 1.7. Japan’s population is projected to be cut in half from 130 million to 65 million over the next 100 years. I think that Israel is the only nation with a growing population (excluding immigration). The US pretty much breaks even and all other wealthy nations are declining. The sad part is the nations that lead the world in human rights, civil rights, scientific & medical innovation, etc. are declining while the basket case countries are seeing their populations explode. The populations of Somalia, Uganda, Afghanistan, etc will explode while Taiwan, Japan, Germany, Spain, etc. decline. ---
**Author:** ![Ionizer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5daacb/32.png) [@Ionizer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ionizer)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-population-what-to-do-about-our-ever-growing-species/546391/28 "2010-07-12T23:43:37Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > The sad part is the nations that lead the world in human rights, civil rights, scientific & medical innovation, etc. are declining while the basket case countries are seeing their populations explode. The populations of Somalia, Uganda, Afghanistan, etc will explode while Taiwan, Japan, Germany, Spain, etc. decline. Sorry, but I just have to mention that when I read the ‘exploding’ bit, I thought of suicide bombers/terrorism. Very good observation there; news headlines verify this of late 😉 Good points, though, overall. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2010, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-population-what-to-do-about-our-ever-growing-species/546391/29 "2010-07-12T23:48:40Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Not only do they stop growing and start declining, but virtually all nations start declining in population once they hit a decent level of wealth . . . The issue isn’t about raw numbers, it’s about impact. If you have 10 million people who live like kings, consume all the resources, and wreck everything in sight, you’re overpopulated. If you have 10 billion who live sustainably, you’re fine. The problem isn’t that we’re literally going to run out of places to stack people (see the Orlando example above.) ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-population-what-to-do-about-our-ever-growing-species/546391/30 "2010-07-13T00:30:40Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > See, because overpopulation is a politically incorrect thing to advance… Once again everyone else is arguing from a position of political correctness :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Right now the growth is occurring in countries that are unpleasantly poor, and exactly what is the evidence they are going to get developed before we overrun the planet? Poor countries are going through the same demographic transition that we in the West already passed through. If you count England as a country (rather than as part of the UK), it’s one of the top 5 most densely-populated countries in the world. We’ve had our population explosion, but now we’ve stabilised (but for immigration). Why do we think poor countries will do the same? Well, for one thing a country has to be increasing in wealth before its population can explode; extreme poverty is associated with high death rates. And such a country doesn’t need to become anywhere near a Western standard of living before its population start thinking about careers, family planning etc rather than just surviving. > [@](#): > > But we’re living on the edge kids; one big crisis and it’s Farewell, Humans. There’s no margin for error. I think a population “correction” is about the worst scenario that’s realistic. Unless you’re positing something much _bigger_ than catastrophic resource failures, extreme climate change and civil unrest. > [@](#): > > And we are already pushing Gaia to the limit, always putting humans first. Yep. We should put Gaia ahead of ourselves, and commit mass suicide. Then Gaia can go back to looking unspoiled and the wonderous circle of life can resume. ---
**Author:** ![Chief\_Pedant](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@Chief\_Pedant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chief_Pedant)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-population-what-to-do-about-our-ever-growing-species/546391/31 "2010-07-13T00:53:01Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Once again everyone else is arguing from a position of political correctness… > > Yep. We should put Gaia ahead of ourselves, and commit mass suicide. > > Then Gaia can go back to looking unspoiled and the wonderous circle of life can resume. So… **Mijin** : to the OP question: is overpopulation a serious problem or is it not? See [here](https://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://gpso.files.wordpress.com/2008/11/bartlett-scientists-political-correctness4.pdf) for a hint. ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-population-what-to-do-about-our-ever-growing-species/546391/32 "2010-07-13T01:05:55Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I think a population “correction” is about the worst scenario that’s realistic. > > Unless you’re positing something much _bigger_ than catastrophic resource failures, extreme climate change and civil unrest. Jesus, that’s not bad enough? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-population-what-to-do-about-our-ever-growing-species/546391/33 "2010-07-13T01:23:15Z")
> [@Chief\_Pedant](#): > > So… **Mijin** : to the OP question: is overpopulation a serious problem or is it not? The OP question is _what to do_ about overpopulation. I have no solution for this. And your implied solution is to shout “Stop having babies!”. But the real issue of course, is resource use and ecological damage / pollution etc. The fact is that we in the west have a vested interest in saying that the problem is population, and not about responsible resource use because the latter would make it more “our” problem and less “theirs”. > [@spark240](#): > > Jesus, that’s not bad enough? I was responding to the suggestion that overpopulation could imminently cause our _extinction_. I’m skeptical about that. I’m obviously not saying “Oh come on, this will just be a worldwide catastrophe of nightmarish proportions, tops”. ---
**Author:** ![Rhynox\_Philibuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@Rhynox\_Philibuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhynox_Philibuster)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-population-what-to-do-about-our-ever-growing-species/546391/34 "2010-07-13T03:39:21Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > So even if we are faciong overpopulation - and I don’t thing we are - so what? The population will eventually reduce itself through the usual means of war, famine and plague, we’ll have a bad couple of centuries, and things will return to normal. Whats normal? ---
**Author:** ![Rhynox\_Philibuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/76d3ee/32.png) [@Rhynox\_Philibuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhynox_Philibuster)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-population-what-to-do-about-our-ever-growing-species/546391/35 "2010-07-13T03:48:10Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > The OP question is _what to do_ about overpopulation. > > I have no solution for this. And your implied solution is to shout “Stop having babies!”. > > But the real issue of course, is resource use and ecological damage / pollution etc. The fact is that we in the west have a vested interest in saying that the problem is population, and not about responsible resource use because the latter would make it more “our” problem and less “theirs”. > > I was responding to the suggestion that overpopulation could imminently cause our _extinction_. I’m skeptical about that. > I’m obviously not saying “Oh come on, this will just be a worldwide catastrophe of nightmarish proportions, tops”. Could we avoid this catastrophe in any way? What about mass sterilizations of random…or selected groups of people? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-population-what-to-do-about-our-ever-growing-species/546391/36 "2010-07-13T04:07:58Z")
> [@Rhynox\_Philibuster](#): > > Could we avoid this catastrophe in any way? What about mass sterilizations of random…or selected groups of people? That’s correctly seen as an enormous violation of human rights and basic decency: you don’t take away someone else’s right to reproduce. Sorry, the Nazis took eugenics off the table as the solution to any kind of population crisis. It’s a non-starter. As is pretty much any part of the overpopulation debate that relies on other groups of people not having sex. This is a resource issue, not a population issue. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-population-what-to-do-about-our-ever-growing-species/546391/37 "2010-07-13T04:08:35Z")
> [@Rhynox\_Philibuster](#): > > Could we avoid this catastrophe in any way? What about mass sterilizations of random…or selected groups of people? Hardly. That’s the sort of thing that starts the wars we want to avoid. Not to mention that the sort of societies that go around forcibly mass sterilizing people are the sorts that should collapse. ---
**Author:** ![Cisco](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ccd318/32.png) [@Cisco](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cisco)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-population-what-to-do-about-our-ever-growing-species/546391/38 "2010-07-13T04:09:42Z")
> [@Rhynox\_Philibuster](#): > > Could we avoid this catastrophe in any way? What about mass sterilizations of random…or selected groups of people? Again, it’s not raw numbers. It’s behavior and impact. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-population-what-to-do-about-our-ever-growing-species/546391/39 "2010-07-13T06:09:43Z")
> [@panache45](#): > > If we have a population problem (and I’m not convinced that we do), perhaps it’s time to challenge the belief that life’s “purpose” is to reproduce. Unfortunately, that’s a very old idea – older, in fact, than ideas. Or humanity. Or multicellular life-forms. You are descended from a very, **very** long line of successful breeders. It’s a hard habit to break. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2010, 8:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-population-what-to-do-about-our-ever-growing-species/546391/40 "2010-07-13T08:10:28Z")
But the _philosophy_ that the meaning of life is to reproduce does not follow automatically from either the fact that reproduction got us here or that we’re biologically wired up to reproduce. But I don’t think a campaign to reverse this philosophy would have much effect. Few people have babies _on principle_. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-population-what-to-do-about-our-ever-growing-species/546391.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-population-what-to-do-about-our-ever-growing-species/546391.md?page=3)