# Global Warming = Record snow? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 10, 2008, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-warming-record-snow/444726 "2008-04-10T03:43:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![NineToTheSky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5a626/32.png) [@NineToTheSky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NineToTheSky)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-warming-record-snow/444726/21 "2008-04-11T12:42:50Z")
As I understand it, this winter’s cold weather is not due specifically to global warming/cooling, but to La Nina: > [@](#): > > Michel Jarraud, secretary-general of the World Meteorological Organisation, said temperatures in 2008 are likely to be cooler because of the effects of the La Nina in the central and eastern Pacific. > > He said it was likely that the La Nina phenomenon would continue into the summer. If his forecast is right it would mean temperatures have not risen globally since 1998 when El Nino warmed the world. > > La Nina (the little girl) and El Nino (the little boy) are two great natural Pacific currents whose effects can be felt worldwide. > > Recently La Nina caused one of the coldest winters in memory in China, Canada and the Arctic and brought torrential rains to Australia. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [April 11, 2008, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-warming-record-snow/444726/22 "2008-04-11T13:38:22Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] … But, anyway, I’m not going to repeat what’s in my posts. They speak for themselves. Have a nice day. [/QUOTE] Agreed. You too. **elfkin** , did you get an answer that made sense to you? ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2008, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-warming-record-snow/444726/23 "2008-04-19T02:42:28Z")
[QUOTE=DSeid] **elfkin** , did you get an answer that made sense to you? [/QUOTE] Sorry, I tried to reply to this days ago and it was eaten by “page can’t be found” before forgetting about it. The answer seems to be that they’re full of it, which is what I suspected all along. One winter doesn’t prove or disprove anything, much as they’d like to convince people otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-warming-record-snow/444726/24 "2008-04-20T00:12:23Z")
Snow conditions in one place are not evidence against global warming. > [@NOAA](#): > > Despite above average snowpack levels in the U.S., the total Northern Hemisphere snow cover extent was the fourth lowest on record for March, remaining consistent with boreal spring conditions of the past two decades, in which warming temperatures have contributed to anomalously low snow cover extent. [linky.](http://www.noaanews.noaa.gov/stories2008/20080417_marchstats.html) Tris ---
**Author:** ![The\_Them](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/898d66/32.png) [@The\_Them](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Them)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-warming-record-snow/444726/25 "2008-04-20T10:15:05Z")
This is as good a chance as any to make wreckage out of scientific language. As the polar and other icecaps melt, they have a good deal of stored-up _cold_ to transmit. It has to go somewhere; the occasional extra opportunity for snowball fights will be one result. Also, loads more water in the atmosphere, and just generally more energy, distributed in such a way that only makes sense to the Chaos Math Department of whatever university that _has_ such a department. (Quick thanks to CK Dexter, who pointed this out first) My Google-fu has a long way to go before it’s even white-belt, but Human-Caused Global-Warming is nothing new; an issue of _Chemical & Engineering News_ had it as a cover story in ~1998. This rag is NOT known for being sympathetic to environmentalism. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-warming-record-snow/444726/26 "2008-04-20T11:44:13Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] Snow conditions in one place are not evidence against global warming. [/quote] What about snow conditions over the entire northern hemisphere? Apparently [January 2008 saw the largest snow cover anomaly since 1966](http://wattsupwiththat.wordpress.com/2008/02/09/jan08-northern-hemisphere-snow-cover-largest-since-1966/) ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-warming-record-snow/444726/27 "2008-04-20T11:47:16Z")
[QUOTE=The Them] This is as good a chance as any to make wreckage out of scientific language. As the polar and other icecaps melt, they have a good deal of stored-up _cold_ to transmit. It has to go somewhere; the occasional extra opportunity for snowball fights will be one result. Also, loads more water in the atmosphere, and just generally more energy, distributed in such a way that only makes sense to the Chaos Math Department of whatever university that _has_ such a department. [/quote] Ok, so if winters are consistently less snowy, that’s evidence against global warming, right? ---
**Author:** ![The\_Them](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/898d66/32.png) [@The\_Them](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Them)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-warming-record-snow/444726/28 "2008-04-20T12:41:55Z")
**brazil84,** _I_ was deliberately being a little facetious. I hope you’re doing the same, though I’m starting to think you may be not be. really frozen water\> not-quite-as-frozen-water\>snowfall\>heavy rain, floods, droughts If I thought it would do any good, I might break out with a tutorial on vapor-pressure, hydrodensity clines due to temperature and relative salinity, and the rest. But some people don’t wanna learn. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-warming-record-snow/444726/29 "2008-04-20T13:07:00Z")
[QUOTE=The Them] **brazil84,** _I_ was deliberately being a little facetious. [/quote] Wll, I’m not sure what your point was. Why don’t you just spell it out, rather than leave me to guess? > [@](#): > > really frozen water\> not-quite-as-frozen-water\>snowfall\>heavy rain, floods, droughts > > If I thought it would do any good, I might break out with a tutorial on vapor-pressure, hydrodensity clines due to temperature and relative salinity, and the rest. But some people don’t wanna learn. And some people do. Why don’t you start by spelling out your point? It seems like you are saying that greater snowfall is an expected consequence of global warming. Or did I misunderstand you? ---
**Author:** ![flex727](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/258eb7/32.png) [@flex727](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flex727)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-warming-record-snow/444726/30 "2008-04-20T15:19:59Z")
[QUOTE=The Them] As the polar and other icecaps melt, they have a good deal of stored-up _cold_ to transmit. It has to go somewhere; the occasional extra opportunity for snowball fights will be one result. [/QUOTE] Okay, my training and experience in physics and engineering does not agree with your statement. If I take a glass of ice out of the freezer and add heat, at no time do any of the contents get colder. The stored cold is released only to the extent that heat is added. If you’re somehow trying to include the Heat of Fusion of the ice, you are still wrong. The effect there would be merely to prevent the melting of the ice until it reaches 0C. I think you’re trying to count the energy absorption of the polar ice twice. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-warming-record-snow/444726/31 "2008-04-20T18:35:20Z")
It snows more. It melts faster. The system is more energetic. More energetic, get it? Having more intrinsic energy. Why does evidence that supports global climate change get dismissed, when it covers the entire world, and multiple decades, but your favorite evidence is believed when it covers small regions and short time periods? Perhaps it is because you have some vested interest or philosophical predisposition that has more to do with your opinion than any reasoned debate. Tris ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-warming-record-snow/444726/32 "2008-04-20T18:49:21Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] It snows more. It melts faster. The system is more energetic. More energetic, get it? Having more intrinsic energy. [/quote] Ok, so if winters in the northern hemisphere are consistently less snowy, that’s evidence against global warming, right? > [@](#): > > Why does evidence that supports global climate change get dismissed, when it covers the entire world, and multiple decades, but your favorite evidence is believed when it covers small regions and short time periods? Is this question addressed to me? ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-warming-record-snow/444726/33 "2008-04-20T19:17:16Z")
[QUOTE=flex727] Okay, my training and experience in physics and engineering does not agree with your statement. If I take a glass of ice out of the freezer and add heat, at no time do any of the contents get colder. The stored cold is released only to the extent that heat is added. If you’re somehow trying to include the Heat of Fusion of the ice, you are still wrong. The effect there would be merely to prevent the melting of the ice until it reaches 0C. I think you’re trying to count the energy absorption of the polar ice twice. [/QUOTE] But that ice draws heat from somewhere, no? If you have a closed system into which you put some ice, ultimately heat will distribute evenly throughout the system, so that the water and its environment are the same temperature. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-warming-record-snow/444726/34 "2008-04-20T19:18:41Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] Ok, so if winters in the northern hemisphere are consistently less snowy, that’s evidence against global warming, right? [/quote] How long, how wide spread, how similar/dissimilar to the southern hemisphere, and whether the seasonal maximum, minimum, and effective average snow cover was gaining or loosing area over decade long periods would all be necessary elements for evaluating that. > [@](#): > > Is this question addressed to me? Not you alone, but the many others who post individual weather events as if they were evidence of something other than individual weather stories. I was present for the coldest temperature ever recorded in my state. That doesn’t mean that a new Ice Age is coming. It means we had some really cold weather. Tris ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-warming-record-snow/444726/35 "2008-04-20T19:19:01Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] Wll, I’m not sure what your point was. Why don’t you just spell it out, rather than leave me to guess? And some people do. Why don’t you start by spelling out your point? It seems like you are saying that greater snowfall is an expected consequence of global warming. Or did I misunderstand you? [/QUOTE] Not to speak for **The Them** , but I think his point is yes, maybe. But, lack thereof does not disprove it, which is what you want him to agree to. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-warming-record-snow/444726/36 "2008-04-20T20:09:19Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] How long, how wide spread, how similar/dissimilar to the southern hemisphere, and whether the seasonal maximum, minimum, and effective average snow cover was gaining or loosing area over decade long periods would all be necessary elements for evaluating that. [/quote] Ok, then let me ask you the question this way: What patterns of snowfal over the next 20 years would be consistent with global warming, and what patterns would be inconsistent with global warming? > [@](#): > > Not you alone, but the many others who post individual weather events as if they were evidence of something other than individual weather stories. Ok, then the apparent fact that “the total Northern Hemisphere snow cover extent was the fourth lowest on record for March,” is not evidence of anything other than individual weather. Right? ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-warming-record-snow/444726/37 "2008-04-20T20:14:09Z")
[QUOTE=Eonwe] Not to speak for **The Them** , but I think his point is yes, maybe. But, lack thereof does not disprove it, which is what you want him to agree to. [/QUOTE] No it isn’t. The question is whether less snowy winters are evidence against global warming. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-warming-record-snow/444726/38 "2008-04-20T21:39:56Z")
[QUOTE=brazil84] Ok, then let me ask you the question this way: What patterns of snowfal over the next 20 years would be consistent with global warming, and what patterns would be inconsistent with global warming? [/QUOTE] Snowfall is only a single aspect of weather, and alone it is not sufficient to evaluate climate trends. The accumulated variations of snow cover over decades, including maximums, and minimums, at all latitudes are somewhat more significant. This brings us to the disingenuous half quote you provide for me to answer your proposed evaluation. Had you included the entire sentence, rather than cherry picking half of it, it would have been an honest question. > [@](#): > > Ok, then the apparent fact that “the total Northern Hemisphere snow cover extent was the fourth lowest on record for March,” is not evidence of anything other than individual weather. Right? The existence of your half quote is evidence that you are more interested in proving a prior opinion than examining actual evidence. Tris ---
**Author:** ![flex727](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/258eb7/32.png) [@flex727](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flex727)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-warming-record-snow/444726/39 "2008-04-20T21:44:57Z")
[QUOTE=Eonwe] But that ice draws heat from somewhere, no? If you have a closed system into which you put some ice, ultimately heat will distribute evenly throughout the system, so that the water and its environment are the same temperature. [/QUOTE] Well, of course, but we’re talking about a change to an already stable system - adding heat. It cannot possibly get colder when you add slightly more heat. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2008, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-warming-record-snow/444726/40 "2008-04-20T22:11:37Z")
[QUOTE=Triskadecamus] Snowfall is only a single aspect of weather, and alone it is not sufficient to evaluate climate trends. [/quote] I guess we’re not speaking the same language. Because I asked a simple question in English. I didn’t ask what would be necessary to evaluate climate trends. I asked what patterns of snowfall over 20 years would be consistent with global warming. And what patterns would be inconsistent with global warming. > [@](#): > > The accumulated variations of snow cover over decades, including maximums, and minimums, at all latitudes are somewhat more significant. Fine, so there is some significance to the patterns of snowfall over 20 years. Which patterns would be consistent with global warming? Which would be inconsistent? > [@](#): > > Had you included the entire sentence, rather than cherry picking half of it, it would have been an honest question.The existence of your half quote is evidence that you are more interested in proving a prior opinion than examining actual evidence. Nonsense. The fact is that you made reference to a narrow weather event as if that event had some significance. Your source could have simply referred to an average over some number of years, but it didn’t. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-warming-record-snow/444726.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/global-warming-record-snow/444726.md?page=3)